Salt Virgin Needs Advice

[niloc16]

no disrespect man and dont take this the wrong way but you need to listen more to the reefers that have hands on experience then what books and scientists say. you asked for advice and we are not salesmen and store owners so we are not trying up sell you on anything. one thing you DONT wanna cheap out on is lighting. i have wasted WAY too much money tryin to do stuff the cheap way and trust me it has cost me ten times more then it should have. yeah sure you can use tap water, just keep your bioload WAY down otherwise in a couple months you will be on here asking for advice on how to get rid of your hair algae and turf algae and every other nuisance algae out there.

[NewGuy]

I take no offense at all and please don't take this the wrong way either, this is pricely what I meant whan I jokingly said "dont say "blah blah blah buy a bubbleking"".

I realize that you are making good recommendations regarding a good reef system. However, the whole point of this excercise is to CHEAP OUT as much as possible. Yes I lack experience and I realize that, hence why I am here. I need some insight as to where I could possibly cheap out some more. I am not aiming for a "mainstream" reef setup with the greatest chance of success. I am trying to squeeze in there on the margins of success with the lowest cost possible and thus trying to take every cost cutting measure possible. If I fail so be it since not that much was lost anyway. I am not wasting money buying various commericial products and ending up having to get another since I bought the cheap commercial product. I am will try to make everything reusable for something else. Trust me I know all about the algae just from my freshwater experience alone.

I have read no books or listened to the "scientists" as you say. Everything I am contemplating is derived from reading about peoples actual reefkeeping experiences.

Thanks for your time.

[Slick Fork]

Welcome to Canreef and Salt water.

I gotta say I agree with Niloc16. There's ways to save money, and then there's being cheap to the point of setting yourself up for disaster.

As an example, for water changes you can buy a 150 gallon pail of instant ocean for $40ish from J&L which is right in Burnaby for you. At roughly 60 gallons of water (total volume) a 10% water change is going to be 6 gallons. At that rate that $40 will last you 25 water changes or roughly 6 months (if you're changing weekly) so that works out to be $1.60 in salt each water change. I don't know about Vancouvers tap water so I'll recommend RO and let more local guys prove me wrong. If you have a grocery store or water store nearby you can typically buy a 5 gallon jug of RO water for about $4 or $5 here in Alberta. Hopefully it's the same where you live so that brings your cost/water change up to $6.60 each time. If that's really too much for you then I gotta say you're probably in the wrong hobby. Without a skimmer water changes are quite important.

I would second the recommendation for the hydor seltz line. I'm also using a quiet one 3000 and it works fine. I like your idea of a refugium that's almost the same size as the display but I would stay away from a DSB, if you want go with a couple of inches for aesthetics.

If you really don't want to spend a whole bunch on lighting right now, I would start it as a FOWLR tank with Normal Flourescent lighting. Even regular flourescent bulbs should allow you to grow some nice macros that will also contribute to nutrient export. Save your money and buy a quality used fixture when one becomes available and as funds allow.

[SeaHorse_Fanatic]

One thing about the reefing side of the hobby is that it is expensive. It is theoretically possible to cheap out on equipment, but you'll probably never achieve the results or the livestock health that you hope for. I have always maintained that either you spend the $$ or the time (preferably both) if you want to grow corals.

If you cheap out on lights, you'll end up being unhappy with the colour or intensity & wish you had gotten something better in the first place (most reefers have upgraded their lighting several times by trying this route).

If you go skimmerless, then either have minimum fish/feeding or be prepared to do water changes. Without a skimmer or water changes, you're looking at much higher probability of a tank crash due to hair algae from the build up of nutrients.

Most cheap/generic T8s I believe are 6700k or lower, so your tank will be yellowish & your water will look like pee.

Yes, it is possible to go this route (I started out totally KISS) but the odds of success are much lower. In the end, I spent a lot more money upgrading tanks & equipment so that now my systems are more-or-less self-sufficient (minimum water changes/maintenance). But to reach that state, I spent a LOT of $$ to get the proper equipment.

On another fish board, I have lots of members ask the same types of questions & I usually recommend that if they don't have the time or $$ to do it properly, then wait till your circumstances change (ie. graduate & get a good job) before jumping into sw.

From what you've stated so far, I would also recommend doing a low bioload fowlr first & then try some softie frags when you have more money for proper lighting &/or skimmer/water changes.

Remember, if you go this cheapout route & fail, its not just a little of your money lost, but also all the livestock you will have killed for no good reason. Something to think about.

Anthony

[SeaHorse_Fanatic]

BTW, unless you use reef bulbs (ie. not 6700k plant bulbs), you're going to end up with a tank of hair algae - pretty much guaranteed.

So if you really insist on going the T8 overdriven route, then make sure you use 10,000k & actinic bulbs, not generic daylight or soft white bulbs that will cause you endless headaches.

[moldrik]

I just got into this, but I'm going to make an attempt to make this hobby affordable. This is my projection based on the reading that I've done ( a couple books ), the amount of reading, and the past 4 weeks that my tank has been running and how much I've experienced in terms of setting up the tank, re-purchases, etc...

What I wrote is gonna be cheap. Most of it is going the super cheapest route not only for setup, but for long, cheap, student life haul. Just be realistic, the cheaper you go, the more risk you run of this project going completely downhill.

I'm being cold here, I'm not thinking best water quality, health of fish, etc... I'm thinking of what you can setup, that will probably run, your fish will probably not die, and you will be able to keep a system without a ton of upkeep ( since you lack time + money ).

Set up:
You can buy most of the equipment for cheap, a lot cheaper than in stores, the question is whether you have the patience for it. Lighting, skimmer, tank, heater, LR, etc... you can either get it for really cheap or for some of these items even free.

You already mentioned your pump that will be needed, but...you will probably want an overflow of some sort when sending water to your refugium, you won't want your livestock getting sent over to it all the time and then getting it pumped back up ( since they'll kick the bucket ). You could also ghetto it and put some sort of soft mesh, or retrofit a strainer so nothing goes from the display to the refugium/sump thing you're frankensteining.

Decision:
So right here, let's say: aquarium + hoses for free.

I think I saw a 40/50 gal Overflow for - $40
salt 160gal Instant Ocean - $40

Total: $80


So, main components, costs, side effects:
1 - Water Changes
Thoughts:
I think the thing about this is that you'll be wanting to use RO water. People mentioned that, and things are gonna get expensive quickly if you buy the water. In the long run, a RO system will make sense for you. The stress from this will also be dependent on how heavy the bioload is.

( I'd say the RO system is gonna save you a lot of money in the long run, so i'd say prioritize one )

If you wanna go super cheap and say screw it to the RO and buying water, you'll need a filter of some sort. You'll want to do something with carbon and phosphate remover otherwise you'll run into some maintenance issues. If you don't do this, your tank will be an algea nightmare with some crappy water quality.

Decision:
I went really cheap. I'd buy an used House RO system for 40 bucks from craigslist. Probably better water quality and cheaper than using a conditioner/filter to try to better the water quality. I'd maybe get some carbon/phosphate remover in a bag and simply make sure it sits in the bucket when the salt mixes for an extra $20. I don't want crazy algea outbreaks from high Phosphate in the water.

http://vancouver.en.craigslist.ca/hsh/903278804.html

House RO system - $40
Carbon / Phosphate Remover ( in a bag )- $20

Total: $60


2 - Skimmer
Thoughts:
This will influence how many water changes you're gonna have to do. Invest in a good one and your tank will be healthier overall ( since it will keep a stable water quality level ). If you invested in a RO system, you basically are saving the price of the Skimmer as long as you do water changes often.

( Possibly low priority, dependant on the RO unit. Get an RO unit, and you can pretty much scratch this one off the list )

Decision:
You bought the RO unit, let's say you can do your water changes

Total: $0


3 - Filter
Thoughts:
Since we can buy an house RO system for $40, I'd do that and then buy some filter media and simply use it when mixing the water.

If we went to buy a filter instead of the used house RO system, it would cost more than the RO system and probably be less beneficial.

http://www.jlaquatics.com/product/pf...er+Filter.html

We are talking cheap here after all.

Decision:
I decided to go with the filter media and use it when mixing the water.

Total: $0 ( I already counted the $20 when buying the RO unit ).


4 - Lighting
Thoughts:
This will be a big factor, dependant mostly on what you wanna keep. If you want a cheap setup, this area is going to get you. Insert corals into the mix and you're raising your cost here by at least $130. You can buy some crappy PC lighting for cheap but you will still be able to run your tank.

Decision:
Let's say the tank comes with a canopy, One 10,000K and one Actinic

Total: $50


5 - Flow
Thoughts:
I think the cost here is pretty small overall, get a single 3 Water Pump Koralia and you should be good for the tank ( $50 bucks ). You can probably buy a used one for pretty cheap.

Decision
Might sound stupid, but you need to take it into consideration, mixing the salt. You'll want a powerhead or something to stir up the water. I share this with the one in my tank, so when I need to mix salt, I take out the powerhead and put it in the bucket.

Shared powerhead ( tank + mixing )

Total: $50


6 - Sand
Thoughts:
Depends on what you want, you can get some for free probably if you shop around and even if you choose to not do a DSB you'll still get some benefits from it.

Decision:
I like the look, helps with the balance of the tank and gives me some good bacteria to help out with making things healty.

Plus, I can find it for free: $0 If not:

http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=46972

Total ( Worst Scenario ): $20 bucks in Richmond.


7 - Live Rock
Thoughts:
Well, there is no question here. Get some, I think I found some adds in the livestock area for $1/lb.

Decision:
There is no decision to make, I buy some rubble.

http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=46443

I'd bug the crap out of fortheloveofcrabs to see if I could get some rock shipped. Might be cheaper overall. Or you can wait in vancouver and find some cheap rock, I've seen it from $2-4 bucks a lbs.

Let's high-end this used rock at $4 a pound, x 40 ( going light on the rocks ) = $160 ( a fairly average, price outside of the LFS ).

If fortheloveofcrabs ships @ $1/lbs + shipping, the shipping is probably cheaper than $120 which makes more sense than getting 40lbs from the LFS.

Total ( Worst Scenario ): $160


8 - Heater
Thoughts:
Buy a used one, I'm sure you can find one cheap or free.

Decision:
Bought a new one, this stuff is crucial and I want something good.

http://www.jlaquatics.com/product/ht...+150+Watt.html

Total: $32


9 - Everything else....
Well you are gonna need a few extra things that add up the cost, cause these are minimal, but you need to get them.

Hydrometer, Food, Test Kits, possibly some additives. If you're using tap water, you might want to get some water treatment conditioners.

This stuff adds up:
Hydrometer: $14
Food: $40 ( frozen brine shrimp, flakes, Phytoplankton ) - I'm going as cheap as possible if you wanna keep corals
Test Kits: $60
Total: $114



Summary:
This is not including ANY livestock.

I would definately invest in a skimmer, you don't have much time. Having to do these water changes constantly will get the best of you. I would also spend the money on a skimmer, even if it's a crappy one. I bought a Red Sea Prizm ( I know they are bad ) for $30 bucks. It works and it helps with aeration and circulation. This will give you less of a headache.

I would not go crazy with this tank, I'd set up a good ammount of snails and some sand sifters to clean up the tank. And probably only keep a few small fish, with a few coral dependant on the lighting.

Salt + Overflow + Tank Setup = Total: $80
Home RO System + Filter Media = Total: $60
Skimmer = Total: $0
Filter = Total: $0
Lighting = Total: $50
Flow = Total: $50
Sand = Total: $20 ( Worst Case )
Live Rock = Total: $160 ( Worst Case )
Heater = Total $32
Everything Else = $114

Grand Total: $566 + taxes

You could bump this up to $700- $750 + taxes ( about $30 in taxes since most of it is used ) and be able to afford yourself some much better lighting and a cheap skimmer ( like mine ). You can go cheaper, and possibly find more stuff for free, but I'm trying to average a "realistic & cheap" budget.
________
medical marijuana

[Leah]

This hobby is great and I think everyone should do it but from experience it is expensive
to say the least. And after forking out the big bucks it is also time consuming I would not
even care to guess at the time I spend on my tanks, granted I am a perfectionist. If I
remember from the early days trips to the L.F.S. for something or other seemed non-stop
Maybe some one out there may agree with me on this that even after buying good stuff
you still spend time fixing stuff...or is that just my bad luck. I would never dream of running a tank without a skimmer. You are setting yourself up for dissapointment it can
be and is frustrating even at the best of times. lol

[brizzo]

Take a look through the buy/sell section here on CanReef. There is *alot* of good deals to be had! Instead of being 'cheap', be practical and buy second hand

[superduperwesman]

In this hobby "as cheap as possible" = costing more. The more your try to avoid spending the more you'll spend.

As much as you'd like to JUST do this, and JUST do that it's a cosmetic hobby so JUST doing the bare minimum kinda defeats the entire purpose. Because who JUST wants to look at there tank all day when it looks like junk.