Zeovit vs. Fauna Marin

[Canadian]

Originally Posted by OceanicCorals

First, a quick debriefing on the one issue that seems to have kept most people out of Probiotic methodologies for so long:

In my opinion, the issue that keeps even more people from reliably using a probiotic system is that it is incredibly labor intensive. I've gone out of my way to automate evaporative top-off, Ca, Alk dosing. Why would I then add a husbandry practice that requires tedious daily dosing? I could forego the costs of the dosing pumps, and auto top-off if I chose to stand around the tank in the morning and dose a bunch of probiotic supplements.

I know all the probiotic proponents will say things like "Well when you're feeding your fish daily it only takes a couple more minutes to dose the additives." or "Probiotic systems are not for 'lazy' hobbyists." Unfortunately, I regularly have to go out of town for the weekend or longer and I don't want to have to rely on someone else to dose several additives. When I've tried vodka dosing in the past I always felt guilty about having to miss days of dosing when I was away and didn't have a tank-sitter.

I like my tank and I like to tinker (sometimes too much) but I don't want to HAVE to do something daily at the risk of some potential negative consequences - I have enough stress at work. I don't want my hobby to be a source of stress. So I guess probiotic systems are for those people who can devote the time and aren't worried about the incurred expenses.

Sorry for the off topic post. I just wanted to make it clear that while many of us look at probiotic tanks and like what we see and aren't concerned about the costs, we just don't have the patience for the tedium of daily dosing.

[Fauna Marin]

Hi Oceanic

Thanks for your costs calculation but i think there is something not correct.

First of all it depends on the situation how much you need of the products to get the results.

As sample Ultra Bio or Bak
This products need mostly only for 2 month en then never or
with very very low dosings
so you can use Ultra Bio as sample for 400 days with one bottle

Min S the same the most reefers use after longer time may 0.5 ml/1000 Liter !!!! a day
which means one bottle good for 500 days with a 260 gallon tank
only during the beginning or if you have a change you need a little bit more
as sample 3 ml / 1000 Liter not on 100 liters

So you cannot make a calculation on that way
the same is that the starter kits that we produce have 2 Liter media in not only 1 and we have also other sizes of bottles.

The Ultralith System is a little bit different following a littel other ideas and animals it is more for mix tanks and more in direction natural colors
We did not work with high copper dosings or such things which make the corals very fast very white .
No problem to create such a product but this i not our line
greets claude

[Aqua-Digital]

Hi Oceanic corals.

In regards to support, now I am the distributor the support is constant, 7 days a week, contact me by email any time and you will get fast response, I am aware of issues in the past but that was the past, we are now commiting to our users and proud to assist everyone, no matter what system the support as many use parts of both.

The Ultra Lith starter is $99 and comes with 2L of media.

If your dosing and calculations are what you are basing your results on cost and tank effectiveness I am not surprised.

This is the reason why Ultra Lith is so popular and Cheaper! with Ultra Lith you don’t have to dose every day.

For example with other system you have to always dose the bio food stuff with fauna you only dose for two weeks, then stop for one week and repeat until you have brought your total media volume up to the correct level, after which you only dose for 2 weeks again when you do a media change, and here is another catch with other systems, you have to replace ALL the media, with Ultra lith you replace only half, so you see you are saving on media and bio immediatly.

If you were replacing ALL the media this is basically like starting from scratch again and so your results would never be very comparable.

In regards to effectiveness other than this, Fauna employ only natural ways to achieve coral success, and do not adopt fast methods for temporary results, the Fauna system takes time but the results are natural and highly successful. As Claude points out no copper is used in the system only natural ingredients so you are replicating what is achieved on the wild, this does not mean other systems are wrong, just fauna takes the approach of replicating natures own methods.

As for ease of dosing this is something that the Ultra Lith system is known for and with the advent of the comparibly cheap GHL dosing system you can automate the whole process.

Picture here, info can be found in our forum



Here is the basic dosing schedule for Ultra Lith systems from start up, as you can see it is dead easy to follow and can be fully automated

Here is a simple step by step guide mainly based around 400L or 100 gallons of tank water. When calculating your own volume please decrease by 20% to take into account displacement of sand and rocks etc.

To start
• Use 250ml of Ultra Lith per 400L of water as an initial start up
• Increase by 250ml every two weeks until you have reached 1L capacity per 400L of water
• After 6 weeks exchange 50% of the Ultra Lith. Repeat this 6 week 50% cycle from now on
• Clean (shake) the Ultra Lith daily, for best results utilise an Ultra Lith reactor, this makes life so much easier.

Initial dosing from start up

Dose as follows

Ultra Bio
• Dose 1 drop per 100L of water per day for the first two weeks
• Week 3 do not dose
• Repeat after 1 week break
• Turn skimmer off for 2 hours when dosing.

Note – after initial set up it is only required to dose as above when changing the Ultra Lith media.

Ultra bak and Ultra Min S
• Dose 3ml per 1000L of water every day of each until nutrients have dropped significantly then reduce dosing to 1ml a day of each.

Continued use.
• Repeat Ultra Bio dosing schedule when replacing media every 6 weeks.
• Dose Ultra Min S and Ultra Bak 1ml a day per 1000L of water keeping check on your parameters.
• It is now advisable to be adding trace elements such as Ultra organic this is key to colouration. Dose as instructed on the bottle.
• You can also use Ultra organic with Ultra Amin to achieve very bright colouration
• I recommend using Ultra carb L also this is important for removing the yellow tannins from the water.

[OceanicCorals-Ian-]

Hold the horses friends!

Originally Posted by christyf5

Oceanic, I think you'll find it much cheaper if you price the ultralith from Ocean Aquatics. I think I had it priced out at around $30 a month for 100gal net water volume.

I paid attention to that fact when I did my calculations. Having dealt with Ocean Aquatics in the past, I realize their prices are fair. However, not all prices were listed on the website during my analysis and, for convenience’s sake, I went with a vendor that did have all the listed prices.

But for the sake of arguement, let’s do a quick comparison just to be sure:

UltraBio 50 ml: $56.03 (Progressive Reef)
Ultralith 1l: $19.07 (Progressive Reef)
Ultramin S 100ml: $26.28 (Progressive Reef)
Ultrabak 100ml: $26.28 (Progressive Reef)

UltraBio 50 ml: $38.49 (Ocean Aquatics)
Ultralith 1l: $17.39 (Ocean Aquatics)
Ultramin S 100ml: Price not listed, so let’s assume it’s the same price as the Ultrabak $23.89 (see Progressive Reef)
Ultrabak 100ml: $23.89 (Ocean Aquatics)

Cost difference $19.50.

At this rate, we’re looking at a 15% difference. So let’s apply that to my previous monthly figure:

$40.27 x 15% = $6.04, so our costs go down to $34.23/mo

Originally Posted by christyf5

Also Ultralith doesn't have to be run using a reactor, or you can run it in a phosban reactor if you choose.

Both systems are ideally utilized with a reactor. In essence, your statement is correct, but a reactor is a big advantage to Probiotic methodology (see Aquadigital’s comments for set up), being able to agitate the media to slough off bacterial films is a GOOD THING and my corals can attest to this. Despite this, I can think of several examples on other forums and even here where Zeovit users have run the rocks in Phosban reactors successfully. I’m not trying to debunk Ultralith (yet), but I do think the two systems should be contrasted at points where they actually differ, without promoting or resorting to ‘halfway’ methods that yield subpar results.

Originally Posted by Aqua-Digital

Hi Oceanic corals.

In regards to support, now I am the distributor the support is constant, 7 days a week, contact me by email any time and you will get fast response, I am aware of issues in the past but that was the past, we are now commiting to our users and proud to assist everyone, no matter what system the support as many use parts of both.

The Ultra Lith starter is $99 and comes with 2L of media.

Aquadigital, I realize this and applaud your efforts. This is how things should be

But as far as the price goes, we still have to compare products where they merit comparisons, so let’s add another bag of media ($14.45 @ JL) to the Zeovit started kit at $82.30 = $96.75

Originally Posted by Aqua-Digital

If your dosing and calculations are what you are basing your results on cost and tank effectiveness I am not surprised.

This is the reason why Ultra Lith is so popular and Cheaper! with Ultra Lith you don’t have to dose every day.

For example with other system you have to always dose the bio food stuff with fauna you only dose for two weeks, then stop for one week and repeat until you have brought your total media volume up to the correct level, after which you only dose for 2 weeks again when you do a media change, and here is another catch with other systems, you have to replace ALL the media, with Ultra lith you replace only half, so you see you are saving on media and bio immediatly.

If you were replacing ALL the media this is basically like starting from scratch again and so your results would never be very comparable.

First off, my dosages were calculated and followed according to the Ultralith manual. So if I and other (former) users were doing something wrong, then it is through no fault of our own. Consider a reiteration of context please.

Also:

http://zeovit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14322
Reaffirmed by the manufacturer http://zeovit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14318

Point being is that yes, with any Probiotic system, you can get away with using less equipment, dosing less product, getting slower results, then claiming that the processes are more natural. Fundamentally, however, you’re pulling the proverbial wool over your eyes to justify unimpressive results. My experience with the product already demonstrated this. From the looks of things, Christy’s experience also mirrored this sentiment.

I would like to note that when using Zeovit, you DO NOT have to presoak the media for a week nor do you replace all the media upon switch-out, you replace 75% of it. Apples to apples please.

Originally Posted by Aqua-Digital

In regards to effectiveness other than this, Fauna employ only natural ways to achieve coral success, and do not adopt fast methods for temporary results, the Fauna system takes time but the results are natural and highly successful. As Claude points out no copper is used in the system only natural ingredients so you are replicating what is achieved on the wild, this does not mean other systems are wrong, just fauna takes the approach of replicating natures own methods.

Okay, this is where I take offense. I am neither ignorant nor am I stupid, but this post gave me pause. Am I really adding copper to my tanks? I almost fell out of my chair reading this; I am well aware of the detrimental toxic effects of copper. However, upon further digging:

http://zeovit.com/forums/showthread....ghlight=copper

Look, my previous post was to elaborate in as to what constitutes as a better system IMO. You may not look upon it as such, but I find such broad handed statements not only advocate fallacy, but misrepresents how the system (Zeovit) functions. Basically, it’s comparable to quote mining and, as a salesman by trade, I don’t appreciate the underhanded tactics by either yourself or the manufacturer. You can give us the straight facts and that would be appreciated a great deal, but the current lot of information really dissuades me from attempting the brand any further.

So, being accountable, let’s look at the facts (as per my research):

- The Zeovit system is a product produced by Korallen-Zucht.
- Korallen-Zucht manufacturers a host of other additive lines that work independently of the Zeovit system.
- The Zeovit system does NOT contain COPPER in any form, be it organic or inorganic, chelated or otherwise.
- The product you refer to is called Spur2. This is an optional additive that can either be used either with or without the Zeovit and has no association with Probiotic methodology. See the above link for more info on Spur2.

Ultimately, Fauna Marin should be able to stand independently by its own merits and should not need misrepresentation of information to generate a sale and/or following.

[Whatigot]

Originally Posted by OceanicCorals

Hold the horses friends!



I paid attention to that fact when I did my calculations. Having dealt with Ocean Aquatics in the past, I realize their prices are fair. However, not all prices were listed on the website during my analysis and, for convenience’s sake, I went with a vendor that did have all the listed prices.

But for the sake of arguement, let’s do a quick comparison just to be sure:

UltraBio 50 ml: $56.03 (Progressive Reef)
Ultralith 1l: $19.07 (Progressive Reef)
Ultramin S 100ml: $26.28 (Progressive Reef)
Ultrabak 100ml: $26.28 (Progressive Reef)

UltraBio 50 ml: $38.49 (Ocean Aquatics)
Ultralith 1l: $17.39 (Ocean Aquatics)
Ultramin S 100ml: Price not listed, so let’s assume it’s the same price as the Ultrabak $23.89 (see Progressive Reef)
Ultrabak 100ml: $23.89 (Ocean Aquatics)

Cost difference $19.50.

At this rate, we’re looking at a 15% difference. So let’s apply that to my previous monthly figure:

$40.27 x 15% = $6.04, so our costs go down to $34.23/mo



Both systems are ideally utilized with a reactor. In essence, your statement is correct, but a reactor is a big advantage to Probiotic methodology (see Aquadigital’s comments for set up), being able to agitate the media to slough off bacterial films is a GOOD THING and my corals can attest to this. Despite this, I can think of several examples on other forums and even here where Zeovit users have run the rocks in Phosban reactors successfully. I’m not trying to debunk Ultralith (yet), but I do think the two systems should be contrasted at points where they actually differ, without promoting or resorting to ‘halfway’ methods that yield subpar results.



Aquadigital, I realize this and applaud your efforts. This is how things should be

But as far as the price goes, we still have to compare products where they merit comparisons, so let’s add another bag of media ($14.45 @ JL) to the Zeovit started kit at $82.30 = $96.75



First off, my dosages were calculated and followed according to the Ultralith manual. So if I and other (former) users were doing something wrong, then it is through no fault of our own. Consider a reiteration of context please.

Also:

http://zeovit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14322
Reaffirmed by the manufacturer http://zeovit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14318

Point being is that yes, with any Probiotic system, you can get away with using less equipment, dosing less product, getting slower results, then claiming that the processes are more natural. Fundamentally, however, you’re pulling the proverbial wool over your eyes to justify unimpressive results. My experience with the product already demonstrated this. From the looks of things, Christy’s experience also mirrored this sentiment.

I would like to note that when using Zeovit, you DO NOT have to presoak the media for a week nor do you replace all the media upon switch-out, you replace 75% of it. Apples to apples please.



Okay, this is where I take offense. I am neither ignorant nor am I stupid, but this post gave me pause. Am I really adding copper to my tanks? I almost fell out of my chair reading this; I am well aware of the detrimental toxic effects of copper. However, upon further digging:

http://zeovit.com/forums/showthread....ghlight=copper

Look, my previous post was to elaborate in as to what constitutes as a better system IMO. You may not look upon it as such, but I find such broad handed statements not only advocate fallacy, but misrepresents how the system (Zeovit) functions. Basically, it’s comparable to quote mining and, as a salesman by trade, I don’t appreciate the underhanded tactics by either yourself or the manufacturer. You can give us the straight facts and that would be appreciated a great deal, but the current lot of information really dissuades me from attempting the brand any further.

So, being accountable, let’s look at the facts (as per my research):

- The Zeovit system is a product produced by Korallen-Zucht.
- Korallen-Zucht manufacturers a host of other additive lines that work independently of the Zeovit system.
- The Zeovit system does NOT contain COPPER in any form, be it organic or inorganic, chelated or otherwise.
- The product you refer to is called Spur2. This is an optional additive that can either be used either with or without the Zeovit and has no association with Probiotic methodology. See the above link for more info on Spur2.

Ultimately, Fauna Marin should be able to stand independently by its own merits and should not need misrepresentation of information to generate a sale and/or following.

+2

[Powertec]

I used FM and everybottle of bak that ordered was outdated and had the foul spoiled smell they manufacturer advised about. I went on the ultralith forum and was advised that the product was still good 6 months after the best before date on the bottle, the problem was that the bottles was sent past these dates. Hopefully the manufacturer has fixed these problems.
I tried for 6 months and eventually went with zeo because of the ability of getting fresher stock. I did like the ultralife and still use it. I think zeo is easier to obtain from LFS as well the only way to access the bac driven system here and in calgary is from online vendors. I was in Calgary on the weekend and Daniel at Wais does carry FM products but not the Bac system he carries the Zeo products for a Bac driven system.

[Aqua-Digital]

One thing is for sure, NOTHING is sent from our dealers out of date. I can not comment much on the past as that is the past, but if you know how we operate, customer care is paramount and if we hear of out dated stock being sold we would address that immediatly like any responsible distributor.

Luckily now for the FM range the amount of dealers in canada is growing and we are taking on new dealers weekly, so i would like to think under us a fresh light has been cast on the great product, and we will do all we can to make sure accessibility and informity is kept to an optimum level.

This is why we support all you guys so heavily on CANREEF as we know how important it is to look after the homegrown market.

Rest assured if you have any questions concerns or anything else we are here to help so situations that may of happened before are only in the past.

Onwards and upwards, now I will shut up (Unless asked directly).

But please keep track of my forum as I dont venture into the public domain of CANREEF hardly ever and that is where all updates and promos are done

[Powertec]

That is good that FM is trying to address the problem from the past.
I just wanted to share my experience with the product, I will continue to use Ultralife. I just find it hard to believe when i have heard this before from claude, meanwhile not replacing the products i purchased FM in the first place.
Just my oppinion
Buyer beware

[Aqua-Digital]

Hiya

As you can clearly see from my post no other brand was referred to specifically as there are so many out there and I have absolute no interest in these sort of discussions. My only mention was of fauna products, with accurate information. I have zero interest in getting involved in debates on which system is best and will not get drawn into such pointless battles, I believe in positivity only.

Both Claudes and my posts were highlighting some miss conceptions of the product and how it is used which we both are entitled to do, and of course the benefits of using the system. Normally we do not get involved in open forum discussions, only when we feel posts are slightly miss leading or inaccurate, as it is for the consumer to report on not us.

As it seems a subject you are quite fired up about I feel it is best nothing further is said from me to stay positive and peaceful and welcome you any time to try the system if you so choose.

It is clear you are a great fan of ZeoVit which your thread is solely based around promoting which is great, maybe you stock the range also??? I am pleased the system works for you as i am sure it does for many others. But what works for one may not work for another and it is for the consumer to decide. What our job is to do is clear any miss conceptions of our product range, give accurate information when asked in a positive way not putting the sytem against others, and highlight its very effective results irrelvant of other systems on the market as it is the Ultra Lith system that is of interest to us not other systems.

We as a company will only ever talk about the benefits of the Fauna Marin Ultra Lith system and will never get dragged into these sort of his product is better than your product pointless battles that only fuels friction. Yes there is competition in the market and I believe that is a good thing it gives consumer choice and that is great for the buying public.

Nothing further to add. But I have a sneeky suspicion this thread is set to run

Best wishes
Michael

[OceanicCorals-Ian-]

Originally Posted by Aqua-Digital

Hiya

As you can clearly see from my post no other brand was referred to specifically as there are so many out there and I have absolute no interest in what these sort of discussions. My only mention was of fauna products, with accurate information. I have zero interest in getting involved in debates on which system is best and will not get drawn into such pointless battles, I believe in positivity only.

Both Claudes and my posts were highlighting some miss conceptions of the product and how it is used which we both are entitled to do, and of course the benefits of using the system.

As it seems a subject you are quite fired up about I feel it is best nothing further is said from me to stay positive and peaceful and welcome you any time to try the system if you so choose.

It is clear you are a great fan of ZeoVit which is great, I am plased the system works for you as i am sure it does for many others. But what works for one may not work for another and it is for the consumer to decide. What our job is to do is clear any miss conceptions of our product range, give accurate information when asked in a positive way not putting the sytem against others, and highlight its very effective results irrelvant of other systems on the market as it is the Ultra Lith system that is of interest to us not other systems.

We as a company will only ever talk about the benefits of the Fauna Marin Ultra Lith system and will never get dragged into these sort of his product is better than your product pointless battles that only fuels friction. Yes there is competition in the market and I believe that is a good thing it gives consumer choice and that is great for the buying public.

Nothing further to add. But I have a sneeky suspicion this thread is set to run

Best wishes
Michael

Fueling friction is not my intention at all. Constructive arguments are good. Customer choice is good and competition is also good. It is obvious that people have success with both products; however, I am only speaking by my own experiences and understanding, thanks for your input!