Importance of the Invoice

[Aquattro]

Troy, I'm certainly not offended, and I regret if I come across that way. No harm in asking is right, and I did just that today. They politely declined. All done, nobody left bleeding or anything :P .
I suppose also that my terminology in dealing with customers would not follow my comments here verbatim, just that I would have to ask you to shop elsewhere if you demanded to see my papers. I would not show them to you. Period. I will tell you, to the best of my ability, where the fish came from. If you imply I am not telling the truth, I really would not show you anything and would ask you to shop elsewhere.
We can certainly discuss this further in person during the tour and perhaps I can emphasize my point a bit better. Really though, I'm trying to be on the side of good in this!!!

[justaguy]

Well, this post yet again tweaked my interest. while I sympathize with people who want to see where there fish is from I also disagree that they should have to show you there bill of lading or invoice. First of all there is information on there that you have no business knowing. Do I want you to know the name and contact number of my supplier? I think not! Do I want you to know how much I paid for the fish I think not! Hell who cares if I paid 1.00 got a flame angel... I have overhead, shipping ect. to pay for and you know what... I think I would be entitled to make a bit of a living for my self! After all why did I open a store in the first place? Let me tell you anyone who said they run a store because they love the hobby is only telling you ½ the truth. it is also because they want to make money. So Naesco I am not sure who you are or why you are the way you are. actually I really don’t care. but you come into my store asking to see an invoice for a fish you will be shopping somewhere else after you recover from being the first person to be thrown out of a store. You know what, why don’t you go to a lighting store and ask to see there invoice so you can see if you are paying to much for your lights or so you can make sure they get them from a specific supplier. I bet that will get you real far.

On a side note I would probably just laugh if I was asked that but if you persisted then I would probably get upset.

Jeff

[Aquattro]

Jeff, Naesco is a guy who cares about the reefs, and the people that choose the reefs as their hobby. I don't agree in the way he does it, but I made a point of reading every post he's ever posted in 3 major boards. He means well. I think he's crazy, but I think a lot of people are crazy. Let's try and keep this as civil as possible, as I can see misunderstandings coming about. We're all friends here, right??

[justaguy]

True and perhaps I was a bit hasty, but I think you can see that not only in the “hobby” but in most businesses this is the reaction you will get. Troy I respect that places let you see there invoices, and if it was a trusted friend of mine I would show them with out hesitation, but thing realistically about this, does Canadian tire really want you to know that there is a 150% mark up on tools? Or does “Joe blow” fish store really want you to know that there is a 400% mark up on flame angels for example. Also the invoice rarely shows how the real landed price of the fish shipping isn’t on it, DOA’s isn’t on it. All this has to be made up by raising the prices of the ones that make it.

Once again I wasn’t intending to insult only to show the absurdness of asking to see a companies invoice.

So to Naesco I apologize but I really do believe you are inciting more harm than good with your posts.

Jeff

[Troy F]

Jeff we all know there's an obscene mark up and most of us understand it's a neccessary part of the business. What would be wrong with posting a copy of the invoice minus price and contact information? What we want (or at least some of us) is to know that the fish we're are considering buying are collected in an environmentally way. A store willing to go the extra distance in this area would have my business in a heart beat. All of this is moot, just shop at a place where you can trust the retailer. For me that's J&L Aquatics.

PS: I'm not sure which retailer you're working for but I don't think you really want to be making threats of throwing people out for simply wanting to know where the fish came from. I know one place has threatened me (and then threatened to call the police when I disapproved of being threatened) and I've never shopped there again. I do go to laugh at the fire trap every once in a while but I've never bought a thing since.

[Delphinus]

All I really meant was if I felt it necessary that I needed to see an invoice, that I wouldn't have a whole lot of sympathy for the protectionist argument. (To be clear I don't mind my job ... I was not complaining about my job!!!!) I kind of agree with the sentiment that if I DID feel I had to ask for an invoice, then I would probably wonder what it was I was doing shopping there. I currently don't make a habit of asking for invoices and I certainly don't feel a need to do so. I do, however, very often make a point to engage the LFS proprietor in a friendly conversation and I usually make a point to ask where the thing {whatever it is I'm looking at} came from. Generally they don't lie. If it came from Indonesia, I've been told they came from there. If it comes from an area where I know cyanide is rampant, then I might think twice. But I always make it a point to keep it on friendly terms. I don't know how to ask for an invoice and keep it friendly. It is a bit of an invasive question and could easily be construed as a hostile question as well, so it's a tricky situation.

But I have to agree with Naesco. I certainly don't want to actively participate in a practise that is destroying the reefs, so short of quitting the hobby, we need to proactively discuss what other things we can do.

cheers

[EmilyB]

I guess I'm fortunate in the fact that when I became active in the hobby, I came to know the fish managers at several of the local stores quite well. Everyone KNEW about cyanide then, it's not a new thing. And these store managers didn't want those fish anymore than anyone else.

I shopped with some of these people at other stores in the city, and it was nothing to ask the origin of the fish. The type of person we were dealing with on the other end of the question had no problem in responding.

I guess I feel if they were lying, likely they would come across poorly to me in other areas as well, and I doubt I'd be shopping there, as I don't in certain city stores.

This isn't about seeing their prices etc. It's about dealing with people who take some interest in the survival of the hobby.

Now, if you have a supplier out there who is willing to show you proof of collection source without you even asking, then in my mind this sets a precedent for his competition to follow.

Well I just saw this thread and figured Id add my 2 cents...
This rant is based on personal experience from the business side of reefing.
As I mostly bring in higher end fish, I have alot of customers that want to know where the fish come from and what the capture method was. I tell them where the fish is from and how it was caught(to the best of my knowledge) Its really that simple, they ask, I tell... As for showing Any customer one of my purchase invoices, Hell No!!!!!!!!!! I have actually had a customer come over and ask to see my invoices because he said that he didnt want me to be making too much money off of him... I told him that as a special service, he could purchase anything he wanted at a min of 600% markup. No customer has the right to know what you purchased something at, so you can sell it as a service to put food on your table. "Yeah, Id like the lobster with the 6oz sirloin steak, Yeah Ill have the baked potato with chives please." "Oh what do you purchase your steak for when you buy it by hundreds of pounds? I know Im only buying 6oz but hey I figure you should carge me cost+mabey 10%, I think thats fair. And the lobster, yeah I know my aunt May in Nova Scotia gets them real big ones for a couple bucks each so yeah Id be willing to pay say $3.50 for the lobster portion. Yeah it sounds pretty absurd, but If you came to my store and asked me to show you my invoice, Id look at you like you just walked out of the loonie bin. And if your request persisted into a demand, I would let you know where the door is and let you know that my life would be alot better if I never heard from you again. I understand peoples concern with getting quality livestock, so find a store that looks like they have quality and then keep buying from them and support them so they can maintain that quality. So many times i see long time reefers that know where the quality stores are but they go hunting for livestock at the less than par stores looking for a deal and then they complain unceasingly about the poor quality livestock that died or made their whole tank sick. STAY AWAY FROM STORES THAT HAVE CRAP PRODUCT!!!!!!!! If you keep supporting them they just keep bringing in more sub par livestock. SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL STORE THAT CARRIES BETTER PRODUCT FOR A HIGHER PRICE!!!!!!!!!! There is a very good reason that they charge a little more for some things. And it is alot cheaper in the end. On a final note, dont ever ask to see my invoice, my business, not yours!!!

[christyf5]

Am I missing something here? I thought when you guys wanted to see invoices you were interested in seeing WHERE the shipment was from not the price or the markup price or whatever. I think most know in this business that a flame angel costs $1.25 plus shipping and stuff. I used to work at a fish store and we could have shown the invoice to anyone who wanted to see it. We would prepare a copy of it without the price or suppliers name on it. Nobody ever asked to see it while I worked there.


Christy

[naesco]

One more time please

I do not care how much you paid for the fish. It is none of my business.

Is there anyone on this thread who would not provide me with the answer to my question as to the origin of the fish?

Is there anyone on this thread who is too chickenPOOP to ask a LFS or online where the fish came from?

Come on reefers as Del puts it we want a green and clean industry.

We want to know that the fish we buy are not cyanide caught fish from the Phillipinnes or Indonesia.

Just a Guy if you disagree with the above please tell us the name of your store and where it is located Thanks