What Lighting?

[StirCrazy]

Originally Posted by Myka

I don't think this is accurate. I'm actually going to take a closer look at PAR levels in the ole MH/T5 debate, but I'm pretty sure that comparing W to W you need a bit less T5 to get the same intensity as the MH. One 250w MH over a 24x24x24" I think would be far less PAR than twelve 39w T5s. I can't even imagine how bright twelve T5s would be over that space!!! I actually don't think it would fit.

actually, it is very accurate, I took my PAR meter down to Safari pets and did a direct comparison between PC/T5/MH the 250 watt MH still had almost twice the PAR at twice the distance, and yes it was high output T5. I will say though that the T5 impressed me enough for me to buy one and put it on my fresh water planted tank as it had 40% more output as the same size of PC.

If you do a search on "watt per gallon" you are going to see a lot of rants from me about it as it is a totally useless measurement and or comparison that in no way relates to anything except the exact same type of lighting at the exact same color temp on the exact same dimension tank.

I usually ignore this but there is a lot of people using this lately that are fairly new to the board, so I will explain it again for there benefit.

first some preamble.

no matter how many lights you add you will not increase the intensity of the light unless you go to a different type of lighting. what you will do is spread the same intensity level over a larger area and create a more even lighting.

Intensity of the light is its penetrating power at a specific distance. When we measure PAR we are measuring the intensity not the total amount, because the total amount means nothing unless it has the power to punch down to the depth you need.

this is why you can grow SPS under NO lights in very shallow tanks, but you can't in deeper tanks.

so on to watt/gal

lets say we have a 100 watt light bulb on a 33 gal tank, thats 3.03 watt per gal, right

so lets look at a classic 33 gal tank 18" tall, then look at my 33 gal tank it is 22.5" tall, and finally lets look at a tank that is 36" tall, 18" wide and 12" front to back (tall 33) they all have the same "watt/gal, but do you think you could grow SPS at the bottom of the 36" tall one? but now if we upgraded from 100 watts of NO to 100 watts of T5 we could maybe get something in the middle tank if we did put it to deep, but still the last example would take more punch.

Which is where MH come in.. the intensity of a MH is not matched by tubs in any way. The MH can penetrate farther down, which is what really matters to us. Do you necessarily need this power, no, but you might

If you want to keep high light corals on the middle of your tank then yes T5's will be good, but if you want to keep some on the bottom of your tank, you will be better off with MH.

take an example from the planted fresh water tank forums, they start out with shop lights and low light plants, then they add better lights (T8's) and find they need CO2. so they get plants that are higher light plants and find light is the limiting factor, so they upgrade to VHO/PC/T5's and use more CO2. but for the deeper tanks T5 HO's arn't even enough when you add CO2 as light becomes the limiting factor again, then they add MH and growth explodes again which shows that a MH will deliver more PAR at depth than T5's. the question remains though... how much punch do you need. Personally I do not think T5's are a long term solution for deep tank in any way other than color supplement. I have the T5's on my fresh water tank (22" deep) and my carpet plants are growing at about 1/2 the speed that they are in the pet shop on a 24" deep tank running MH.

Steve

[Myka]

Originally Posted by StirCrazy

actually, it is very accurate, I took my PAR meter down to Safari pets and did a direct comparison between PC/T5/MH the 250 watt MH still had almost twice the PAR at twice the distance, and yes it was high output T5. I will say though that the T5 impressed me enough for me to buy one and put it on my fresh water planted tank as it had 40% more output as the same size of PC.

What you do not know though is how old the bulbs were in comparison to eachother. Also the type/brand of ballast and reflectors play a huge role in PAR as well. Although your "general" comparison may be "somewhat" accurate.

Generally, I have found that the T5 Euro SPS tanks have a lower watt per gallon than the usual North American MH SPS tanks (on similarly dimensioned tanks). That is why I said that you generally need lower watts with T5s than you do with MH. Maybe "intensity" was a bad choice of words on my part...

If you do a search on "watt per gallon" you are going to see a lot of rants from me about it as it is a totally useless measurement and or comparison that in no way relates to anything except the exact same type of lighting at the exact same color temp on the exact same dimension tank.

I agree. I used the "watt per gallon" as a general comparison to similar SPS dominated tanks, and only in comparison of T5s to T5s or MH to MH. I am very aware that wpg is an inaccurate way of defining lighting intensity, BUT it is a good point to start from.

If you want to keep high light corals on the middle of your tank then yes T5's will be good, but if you want to keep some on the bottom of your tank, you will be better off with MH.

Ok...I see where we're not seeing eye to eye here. Thanks for taking the time to write out your explanation even though I am in the understanding of this.

I do know that T5s (and every other form of lighting) are limited to the depth they will light. Many other factors; like water clarity, reflectors, ballasts, etc also play a part. I have no interest in keeping SPS at the bottom of my tank. I chose to have a 24" tall and only 18" wide tank because of the look I would like to achieve.

Essentially, I would like to try to (simply) replicate a wild reef shelf (I think it would be called). With high light SPS on the top, lower light SPS lower, higher light LPS in the middle, lower light LPS lower down, and the lowest light corals down low. The way I will be building my rocks will make for a plateau type layout up high on the left, as well as a bench with sand in it for a clam. Under the plateau on the left side will be a low lit area for low light corals. The rocks then taper off on the right side of the tank creating a tiered effect.

So, in my case I do not need the light to have high intensity low down. I would like to be able to keep the lower light LPS corals near the bottom though. I will have a 3" sandbed as well.

What do you think of the T5 idea for this type of tank? I have decided that I want to go with the Sunlight Supply T5 Retro Fit kits instead of the Tek fixture. This way I can spread the lights out from front to back better. Good idea?

[StirCrazy]

Originally Posted by Myka

So, in my case I do not need the light to have high intensity low down. I would like to be able to keep the lower light LPS corals near the bottom though. I will have a 3" sandbed as well.

What do you think of the T5 idea for this type of tank? I have decided that I want to go with the Sunlight Supply T5 Retro Fit kits instead of the Tek fixture. This way I can spread the lights out from front to back better. Good idea?

the lights I compared were brand new T5 HO against a brand new PC and a 7 month old MH with a ugly dirty reflector, so you can see the MH was at a disadvantage right off the start and probably would have been 3 to 4 times the out put of the others if it were new and clean, and I wasn't going to clean the stores equipment for them as they weren't paying me

I was impressed with the T5 reflector as I think that is what caused it to be so high compared to the PC (I was expecting a 10 to 20% higher output not 40 to 50%. and I wasn't going to clean the stores equipment for them as they weren't paying me

I started out my reef with exactly what you are thinking in a 24X24X36" tank. I started off with PC/VHO. then moved to 175 MH with them then to a new MH fixture, with several lighting changes in between. I think all together I spend 5 to 7K on just lighting because 6 years ago there was really no info on lighting so that is what I decided to play with and learn.

anyways I do understand what you are trying to do but let me ask you this.. what are you calling a "low light" coral. I had mushrooms, colt, leather, zoos, open brain, GSP, Montipora digitata, caps, milli's, acros, birdnest, and a few others in a 24" deep tank.

The PC/VHO kept everything alive, but thats it.. the 175 as a good addition but only in a limited area and still no nice colors in the SPS just brown and washed out blue. so after 2 months of reading and learning and measuring different setups with my PAR meter, I built my own reflectors for a twin VHO/Twin 250 MH SE on HQI ballasts
colors picked up right away, PAR was dramatically increased over the PC/VHO combination by about 15X.

what was I getting at here, Oh ya.. anyways under the MH set up the zoos, mushrooms, ect (all the so called low light corals) also exploded in growth and colors were intensified a little. so I am personally on the side of the "No such thing as to much light" side of the argument as I have never seen a coral suffer from increased lighting when it is increased properly.

I am not a big fan of sandbeds in the tank anymore, I started off with a 6" deep one myself, and while I loved the look after about 3 years it caused problems. I took 1/2 of it out and still had problems, took the rest out and problems went away. I think I would be tempted if I had to put something in there it would be a very thin layer of coarser sand siliconed to the bottom of the tank so it looks like there is a sand bed, but you could still have crazy water movement in the tank with out moving the sand around. If I decided I needed a DSB it would be split between 3 containers remotly and I would change one of the containers every 6 months, but having said that after I got rid of the sand I still always had zero nitrates so there was no need for a remote sand bed.

try the T5's if you are having problems then you can always change them to both actinic and add a MH pendant to it like you originaly stated.. this way you are not waisting any lights like I did.

Steve

[Myka]

Originally Posted by StirCrazy

anyways I do understand what you are trying to do but let me ask you this.. what are you calling a "low light" coral. I had mushrooms, colt, leather, zoos, open brain, GSP, Montipora digitata, caps, milli's, acros, birdnest, and a few others in a 24" deep tank.

What I call "low light" corals are the ones I don't want to grow like mad!!! LOL! Like GSP, my Bubble, and all the Euphyllia's. I do have really nice coloration on my Monti caps which are about 8" from my two 39W T5s. I figured if I added more T5s that I might be able to get the same coloring with the Monti's 12-14" away from the bulbs...?

what was I getting at here, Oh ya.. anyways under the MH set up the zoos, mushrooms, ect (all the so called low light corals) also exploded in growth and colors were intensified a little. so I am personally on the side of the "No such thing as to much light" side of the argument as I have never seen a coral suffer from increased lighting when it is increased properly.

I agree...never too much light (provided you can control the heat!!). I really like my GSP (it's an odd variety), but it already spreads like a mofo, I can just imagine what it would do under MH... EEK!

I am not a big fan of sandbeds in the tank anymore, I started off with a 6" deep one myself, and while I loved the look after about 3 years it caused problems. I took 1/2 of it out and still had problems, took the rest out and problems went away. I think I would be tempted if I had to put something in there it would be a very thin layer of coarser sand siliconed to the bottom of the tank so it looks like there is a sand bed, but you could still have crazy water movement in the tank with out moving the sand around. If I decided I needed a DSB it would be split between 3 containers remotly and I would change one of the containers every 6 months, but having said that after I got rid of the sand I still always had zero nitrates so there was no need for a remote sand bed.

I have critters that need the sandbed. I won't be going BB in the foreseeable future. I strongly dislike the look of it. I run three MJ1200s on a
Red Sea "Wavemaker" in my 33 which makes for 27x turnover, and although it took me quite some time to cipher out how to position the PHs without blowing my oolite sugar sized sand around...it IS possible!!! LOL!!!! It would have been much easier with Koralia's or Tunze's.

try the T5's if you are having problems then you can always change them to both actinic and add a MH pendant to it like you originaly stated.. this way you are not waisting any lights like I did.

Steve

I have a dual strip of 36" T5s that I plan on putting onto my 65. If I go MH I will use them for actinics, if I stick with T5s, then I'll use them as additional T5s.

You still haven't said exactly what you would suggest I light my tank with...? I understand you're all for the MH, but considering I refuse to put more than one MH over my tank, what type of ballast/wattage setup do you suggest? Personally, I'd like to use the PFO mini pendant. I'm thinkin a 250w HQI would likely be enough light, especially considering there is dyck all for bulb choice if I go for 400w HQI. My understanding is you get the highest PAR if you use an HQI bulb with an HQI ballast in comparison to HQI w/ electronic ballast or a mogul bulb w/HQI overdriving the bulb...?

Thanks for all your input Steve.

[StirCrazy]

Originally Posted by Myka

What I call "low light" corals are the ones I don't want to grow like mad!!! LOL! Like GSP, my Bubble, and all the Euphyllia's. I do have really nice coloration on my Monti caps which are about 8" from my two 39W T5s. I figured if I added more T5s that I might be able to get the same coloring with the Monti's 12-14" away from the bulbs...?

remember, more lights won't increase the intensity, only the spread so there still won't be anymore PAR at 12 to 14" than there is under the bulbs now, you wil just put a more even coverage of the same level by addinbg more bulbs.

ya, I had a 65X turnover with the 6" bedd, but when I upped it to 120X turn over it was insain on the sand bed so I had to keep it in the top 1/2 of the tank, when I got rid of the sand it let me even the flow out over the whole tank. and believe it or not high flow is one of the things that will prevent corals from bleaching from new lights, you just need tones of it.

Originally Posted by Myka

You still haven't said exactly what you would suggest I light my tank with...? I understand you're all for the MH, but considering I refuse to put more than one MH over my tank, what type of ballast/wattage setup do you suggest? Personally, I'd like to use the PFO mini pendant. I'm thinkin a 250w HQI would likely be enough light, especially considering there is dyck all for bulb choice if I go for 400w HQI. My understanding is you get the highest PAR if you use an HQI bulb with an HQI ballast in comparison to HQI w/ electronic ballast or a mogul bulb w/HQI overdriving the bulb...?

Thanks for all your input Steve.

Hmm, I have just been looking at lights myself so here is what I would do if you can only use 1. get a good mogal bulb enclosed reflector pendant. go with a giseman bulb say the 12.5K or "marine" I believe it is called (if AB's were easy to get I would go with there 10K but they are expensive and hard to get). and then run it with a newer style HQI electronic balllast or even better a digital ballast. (newer ones don't under drive the bulbs like the first ones 5 or so years ago did. A mogal based bulb will give you more coverage than a double ended will. actualy I believe there is some one on the board selling electronic ballast and mogal pendant for 75 bucks each but I am not sure what kind of ballasts they are. If you are using a hood you could use a retrofit reflector, but I mentioned the pendant style as it will be a little less heat.

Steve

[Myka]

Originally Posted by StirCrazy

ya, I had a 65X turnover with the 6" bedd, but when I upped it to 120X turn over it was insain on the sand bed so I had to keep it in the top 1/2 of the tank, when I got rid of the sand it let me even the flow out over the whole tank. and believe it or not high flow is one of the things that will prevent corals from bleaching from new lights, you just need tones of it.

Holy jebus!

Hmm, I have just been looking at lights myself so here is what I would do if you can only use 1. get a good mogal bulb enclosed reflector pendant. go with a giseman bulb say the 12.5K or "marine" I believe it is called (if AB's were easy to get I would go with there 10K but they are expensive and hard to get). and then run it with a newer style HQI electronic balllast or even better a digital ballast. (newer ones don't under drive the bulbs like the first ones 5 or so years ago did. A mogal based bulb will give you more coverage than a double ended will. actualy I believe there is some one on the board selling electronic ballast and mogal pendant for 75 bucks each but I am not sure what kind of ballasts they are. If you are using a hood you could use a retrofit reflector, but I mentioned the pendant style as it will be a little less heat.

Steve

I thought the PAR of an HQI bulb was considerably higher than a mogul?? Ya, I really like the look of the Giesemann Marine (13K actually :P ). I have never heard of an electronic HQI ballast...? I was going to go with this one:

http://www.jlaquatics.com/phpstore/s..._ID=pfo-bh401q

What about this pendant?

http://www.jlaquatics.com/phpstore/s...ct_ID=pfo-hp8m

Here's J&L Aquatics' 400w mogul based bulb selection (they only have one 400w HQI):

http://www.jlaquatics.com/phpstore/s...ategory_ID=197

[StirCrazy]

Ok, here is my recomendation along the lines you are thinking.

from J&L
this ballast
http://www.jlaquatics.com/phpstore/s..._ID=pfo-be250e 177ish

the pendant you picked is fine, I personaly don't like the PFO stuff as it is bulky and there is way better out there for only a little more.

and 250W Megachrome Marine Mogul (13000K) Metal Halide Bulb - Mogul Base 93.ish (buy it from where ever.)
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personaly this would be my pick from sunlight supply
Galaxy™ 250 WattElectronic Ballast 120/240 Volt 902490Metallic Green Anodized Aluminum8.5lbs.$157.95Each

reflector pendant
http://www.sunlightsupply.com/produc...s%3D%26pgi%3D1

and the same bulb as above.

Steve