Heartbreak hotel

[Aquattro]

I have always had some zoos and GSP in with SPS, no issues. I have not mixed leathers and such though. I did have a time when things didn't do well, and I decided it was a vibrio outbreak and treated with antibiotics for that. The tank turned around after the treatment. This shows that sometimes it's something that can't be measured, so don't assume because the salifert kits say everything is good that it actually is. Lots of things affect a closed environment that are beyond our abilities to assess.

[Tom R]

I see an opportunity. What we need is a CSI Reef Center. It would be interesting if we could take a sample of our water to get a full breakdown analysis of its make up or DNA. This may be available already but at what cost and where.

Tom R

[Delphinus]

What were the symptoms that made you think vibrio?

I'll do some reading on that. I'm reading a few threads on RC where people have theorized about pathogens, so it seems I'm not alone on this one after all. But how can you tell? I'm rather uncomfortable with the notion of an antibiotic treatment, or at least proceeding on something based on an uneducated guess.

[Delphinus]

BTW, I'm not discounting allelopathy as a phenomenon in general, but I am skeptical that it is the cause here. There was a time people skoffed at my suggestions that chemical warfare is happening in our tanks, but nowadays I feel like I'm on the other side of that debate - too often people scream "chemical warfare" or "allelopathy" when something is happening that we can't easily rationalize away. In general, mixed garden type reef tanks do not work well long term because of this. However, I don't really consider what I have to be mixed reefs.

Let me explain myself a little more. At various points in the past 3 years, I have had my tanks completely devoid of corals. The only steadfast inhabitants I've had through this time period now are the fish. I already have the anemones isolated from one another because that I beleive that they will interact without direct contact.

Therefore if it was an allelopathy issue, it should have been impacted by these fallow periods... but it was not. I ran SPS only for the longest time and did well by it until approximately 8 months after I moved. One other thing that I may not have mentioned yet, is that one other thing that leads me to suspect this could be more pathogenic in nature, is that it all started happening after I traded frags with someone. The frags that were acquired in that trade never did well and eventually all perished (despite rampant growth in my other SPS). However, it just seemed that whatever happened to them, would start happening to other SPS, one by one. Until the point was reached where I noticed that all my corals were just not looking the same as before. To an untrained eye things looked great. When the Intermamerican folks came by to deliver my 280g, they made the comment that I had one of the nicest SPS reefs that they had ever seen. I felt honored by the comment but I had this nagging suspicion at the time that things were not right (just based on week to week observations). Within months of that point I had an empty tank, well, basically, a fish-only.

I also think allelopathy would just have a more "random" feel to it. This is rather specific, repeatable and ... I don't know how to say it. "Thorough?" "Complete?" I mean, it's 100%, all you need is to give something enough time.

What worries me is that I'm setting up a new tank, and if it's something that can transfer ... then I'm in a world of hurt. In time, there will be transfer into the new system. Fish will be moved, clams will be moved ... this can't happen without water making the trip with them. If there's something in that water ... I need to find a way to manage that aspect. Well, first to confirm, then to manage I guess.

[digital-audiophile]

What are your plans with the 180, are you going to transfer everything from your 75G or are you starting it from scratch? That may be the true test in the long run if it can keep SPS alive.

I don't know a lot about it but you always hear the term "old tank syndrome" thrown out there, I don't know if there is really an explination for it, or if it is just something that is suggested when an old tank seems to start going wrong.


- LOL you must have been editing your post as I was writing mine.. I think you already answered by question

[Joe Reefer]

Tony, I think its karma. You need to get the big tank going.
Honestly I have no idea what the problem could be.

[Samw]

Originally Posted by Delphinus

What were the symptoms that made you think vibrio?

I'll do some reading on that. I'm reading a few threads on RC where people have theorized about pathogens, so it seems I'm not alone on this one after all. But how can you tell? I'm rather uncomfortable with the notion of an antibiotic treatment, or at least proceeding on something based on an uneducated guess.

Symptoms of the bad strain of vibrio would be Tissue Necrosis (Rapid or non-rapid). The presence of the bacteria alone doesn't mean all acros are going to get sick. Like in humans, not everyone that comes into contact with vibrio vulnificus will exhibit flesh eating disease and die.

http://www.epi.state.nc.us/epi/gcdc/vibfacts.html

"On very rare occasions, people may get sick when they come into contact with Vibrio vulnificus. People infected with V. vulnificus are often hospitalized, and some die."

In a small closed system like our tanks though, it is probably easier for vibrio to takeover a weaker coral. A coral can be weakened by poor water quality of the owner's tank or from being recently transported in a bag by plane or from poor water quality in the holding tank of the retailer. Once a coral is infected, you might have an outbreak and it might make it easier to infect the next weakest coral, and so on.

http://www.reefs.org/library/talklog...an_040697.html

"It has recently become apparent that most of the losses of Acropora and other small-polyped stony corals in captivity are due to bacterial diseases. "

"How do I know if my corals have a problem?
The brief answer is that they die. There are a number of ways that can happen, however.

• Rapid Tissue Necrosis
• Bacterial-Induced Tissue Necrosis

Both of these describe syndromes where acropora and other SPS corals rapidly (or not so rapidly) slough tissue from thier skeletons. "

"I've had it cultured, others have as well. I'm in the process of fulfilling Koch's postulate with the organism, and showing that it causes disease in corals by placing clean corals in contact with the organism.Vibrio vulnificus is a tough customer. It secretes powerful proteases into its environment. It can liquefy wounds in humans. In corals, it seems to break the bonds between cells and between the coral and the skeleton, which leads to sloughing of tissue. "

I'm sort of wondering if running UV might be something to look into.

I wanted to suggest this earlier. I would agree with this idea. It wouldn't hurt.

[andestang]

Do you have an empty tank in the vicinity. It may be sending out some sort of curse. (Just trying to lighten your mood )
I'm with the water issue. After some new carbon and phosban(how long since changed-sorry if I missed that somewhere) the frag idea sounds reasonable step. My last house I had a horrible time with all kinds of issues/losses. Now I'm have much better luck and on well water to boot.

[Der_Iron_Chef]

I would love to see you take several gallons of your existing water, an SPS frag, and relocate it all to a quarantined test tank in someone else's home. At least that would rule out something in the air/walls/etc.

[Samw]

This is another look from the bacteria angle and is being applied to all corals, not just Acropora. I'm of the opinion that Acropora are more fragile than other SPS and are more easily infected by bacterial disease. I think the last sentence is interesting.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-03/eb/index.php

"Several years ago, an article appeared that described the bacteria, Vibrio shiloi, as causing bleaching in the Mediterranean coral, Oculina patagonica (Kushmaro 1996). At the time, most people were of the opinion that the conditions of this were unusual. It seemed to occur in a single species in a non-coral reef area. Most researchers were relatively unconcerned. Julian Sprung spoke vocally about this event in a discussion on NOAA's coral-list, and it was similarly met with some skepticism that it could be much of an issue for corals, in general. To be sure, I was one of them. "

"However, one could have heard a pin drop during the elegant and outstanding presentation by Dr. Eugene Rosenberg of Tel Aviv University (Rosenberg 2002). This man single handedly threw the proverbial monkey wrench into the coral world that morning. In the years since the original articles have been published, Rosenberg's team has not only fulfilled Koch's postulates for this pathogen in a textbook-like fashion, but has proceeded to describe the etiology in an extremely impressive manner. "

"In short, Vibrio shiloi is a newly described species of bacteria, related to V. mediterranei, with an as-yet undetermined reservoir; that is, it is not known where or if the presence of this bacteria is normal to the environment, or if it is somehow just recently showing up to affect the area. It follows the temperature cycles of the area precisely, and causes bleaching in warm months followed by recovery as the water temperature declines."

"Interestingly, it only takes 120 bacteria to cause an infection, and the bacteria can reproduce to 109 bacteria/cm3 in five days!! With water cooling below the virulence temperature, the bacteria die rapidly. "

"The reader may ask the same question that has occurred before, and was described above. So what? It's a Vibrio that is found not on coral reefs, but is specific to one coral species that we don't keep and will likely never see. The implications are certainly interesting, but what does it mean to tropical corals? Rosenberg had an answer to this, too. Knowing the skepticism that existed in the community, he has recently gone into the Indian Ocean and the Red Sea and looked at bleached Pocillopora damicornis. Is everyone ready?

A new species of bacteria, Vibrio corallyticus, was consistently found in the tissues of the bleached Pocillopora at a level that already fulfills the first of Koch's postulates. The virulence is even more amazing. At 23° C, there are no visible signs of disease. At 25° C, bleaching occurs. At 27° C, there is rapid tissue lysis. A virulence factor is being produced by this bacteria that correlates extremely well with the temperatures commonly cited as causing coral bleaching. Furthermore, Rosenberg describes the bleaching as spreading; a characteristic seen all too often by both field observers and aquarists. "

"As a final note to this incredible tale, and as if the reader has not had enough already, Rosenberg also found that Oculina in shallow water, even in high temperature and exposed to V. shiloi, rarely bleached. They found that UV radiation acted as an effective sterilizer for V. shiloi on the coral surface! "