Michika's 28g long nano-esque tank!

[kwirky]

it costs $$ but you could convert to zeovit? I had amazing nitrate reduction within 3 days of starting the system. Now 2 weeks later it's undetectable nitrates in the new tank. U need a skimmer though. It costs about $160 to start up on a tank your size if you build your own reactor (which isn't too hard). $80 if you don't dose K+ (potassium).

Not guaranteed it'll help your situation as fast as you need it to though; it's quite the committment to a "new" style of aquarium keeping if it's only to take care of an immediate emergency...

[michika]

Zeo isn't for me. I researched it back when I started planning out this tank, and the financial commitment is too much. My tank used to be self sufficient, paying for everything I needed through frag & equipment sales. Thanks for the suggestion though. I am eagerly watching your build though to see how it all plays out. Lets say I would go the zeo route and suck up the cost, how do you think it would help my current issue? I know you mentioned lower nitrates.I don't have any nitrates now, I just keep the sponge in there in case there really is a cycle going on. Anything else you think it would help with?

I definitely would consider putting out the cash for zeo provided that I know it will work. The downside is that I'm not sure if I want to be on a long term program like. I could always wean my tank off of it right?

[Delphinus]

Zeo (or equivalent) seems to be about "helping along" the bacteria that help stabilize a tank. Now the advertised benefit is a reduction of nitrate and phosphate, and although you may not have a nitrate buildup, it still is bacteria that reduces ammonia into nitrite and nitrite into nitrate, so maybe it's possible that these could be helped along too. (I'm just guessing, I don't really "know").

FWIW I bought into Reef-resh (which is like "Zeo light") for about $150. You don't need a reactor and there are dosing instructions for daily dosing, or a lazier approach for weekly dosing. It might be something to look into. I was pretty impressed with how fast I started seeing results.

[michika]

I always thought, or understood Zeo, and similar products, to be about ensuring the right balance of beneficial bacteria, to keep the tank on that razor edge. I remember the benefits being lowered levels of pretty much everything as well, hence my earlier question.

Does it still sound and look like a cycle to you? Its been a LONG time since I've delt with a cycle first hand, so I'm not really sure about it.

Both Zeo and Reef-resh are available at Golds correct?

[Matt]

First, condolences. This is suckage extreme.

Second, I don't see how this could be a cycle. Immediate deaths at that scale says "toxin" to me. Did you use any new glues, cleaners, solvents,e tc. during the build? Did something get dropped in accidentally during the switchover?

I've never <knock on wood> had to deal with this kind of tragedy, so these are just guesses. I think I'd have broken the tank down and set up a QT tank by now.

[michika]

Originally Posted by Matt

First, condolences. This is suckage extreme.

Second, I don't see how this could be a cycle. Immediate deaths at that scale says "toxin" to me. Did you use any new glues, cleaners, solvents,e tc. during the build? Did something get dropped in accidentally during the switchover?

I've never <knock on wood> had to deal with this kind of tragedy, so these are just guesses. I think I'd have broken the tank down and set up a QT tank by now.

Nothing new, just the same usual products. 100% silicone, no anti-fungal. No solvents in the tank, other then freshwater for the initial leak tesk in August, and again in November.

Everything went from my 24g to salt buckets, then from closed salt buckets into the new system. If anything got in it must have been after the tank was set up. There was no RTN or signes until 2 days after the initial set up.

The strange thing though is that the only things that have died are SPS, and smaller clams (all under 4"). All my inverts and fish are fine, and that includes snails, and my cowry. Do you know of anything that only attacks SPS or clams? Any ideas on what the toxin may be if its not touching inverts or fish?

[Doug]

Originally Posted by michika

Nothing new, just the same usual products. 100% silicone, no anti-fungal. No solvents in the tank, other then freshwater for the initial leak tesk in August, and again in November.

Everything went from my 24g to salt buckets, then from closed salt buckets into the new system. If anything got in it must have been after the tank was set up. There was no RTN or signes until 2 days after the initial set up.

The strange thing though is that the only things that have died are SPS, and smaller clams (all under 4"). All my inverts and fish are fine, and that includes snails, and my cowry. Do you know of anything that only attacks SPS or clams? Any ideas on what the toxin may be if its not touching inverts or fish?

Thats sounds like an alkalinity jump. Not saying thats your problem but a spike in alkalinity would cause those exact symptoms. Was all the new water run through a DI. I had a simialr problem several years ago. Filled 1/2 my 170 with old water & half with new water. Although using an ro unit, my well water was high in alkalinity, unknown to me. That, along with the high alk. Instant Ocean had then, nuked my clams and all my sps.

I blamed it on everything else under the sun but later we figured out what the problem was.

[kwirky]

yeah zeovit takes quite a committment and the costs do add up. I've never experienced a cycle so fast as the zeovit cycle happening in my aquarium now though. The initial buy-in and the potassium dosing is the pricey part. Potassium's so expensive . Zeovit and reef-fresh and the like have a lot of skepticism but at least it's not as strange as vodka dosing

I think one of the problems is the lack of test kits that have a range of 0.0 to 0.5 ppm nitrate. A few articles in advanced aquarist talked about testing that low. I had wierd algae stuff going on in my previous tank when introducing rock or pulling the rock out of the water and resubmersing it. Nitrates would test 0 on a salifert kit but I had this hunch there was enough in there for some algae types.

[michika]

Originally Posted by kwirky

yeah zeovit takes quite a committment and the costs do add up. I've never experienced a cycle so fast as the zeovit cycle happening in my aquarium now though. The initial buy-in and the potassium dosing is the pricey part. Potassium's so expensive . Zeovit and reef-fresh and the like have a lot of skepticism but at least it's not as strange as vodka dosing

I think one of the problems is the lack of test kits that have a range of 0.0 to 0.5 ppm nitrate. A few articles in advanced aquarist talked about testing that low. I had wierd algae stuff going on in my previous tank when introducing rock or pulling the rock out of the water and resubmersing it. Nitrates would test 0 on a salifert kit but I had this hunch there was enough in there for some algae types.

I guess my first plan is to find out what is causing the problems in my tank and go from there. Zeo sounds like its more of a long term "solution". If I understand it correct it would take 2 weeks or longer for me to start seeing results?

I guess my next step is to test my parameters again today, do my normal 5g water change and then what?

[Delphinus]

Yeah, sorry, I thought I mentioned this but I guess I didn't. I would think even a bacterial system will still take a least a week before producing any results, and you have a more immediate problem on hand.

I actually do still think this is a cycle. Whatever the cause, it's a cycle now, but I think it's even just a cycle that's self-escalating. (2-3 pages back you've got your parameters listed - and ammonia is present..) But the more I think of it, I think it's just that the move was enough to disrupt the processes, and a little cycle turned into a big cycle as things started letting go.

As for SPS and smaller clams in particular, these guys tend to be the most sensitive so, unfortunately, it makes sense to me that they are the first to let go.

I think at this point what you need to do is get whatever's left, that's still of a sensitive nature, out of there for a week or two. If you have any SPS left then those, and your remaining two clams, should probably be moved into an established tank. Softies might be able to weather this storm but I can't say for sure.

I think what your tank needs is basically just enough stability for the processes to re-establish themselves. It could take a few weeks but I'm sure it will settle out. It's just the "what do you do with the livestock" in the meantime.

PM me or call me if you want to use some of my tank space. I cannot guarantee survival but I'd do my best...