Advice on Nitrate/Phosphate problems

[Dave C]

I'm too new to sw to have a valid opinion on the benefits/negatives of sand. But I had Discus for years and the same bb vs. substrate argument raged although there were different aspects to it. One thing that was always said was that removing the sand would cause a catastrophe, and that's been said here too. I disproved that here when I removed all sand/substrate from my planted tank. I had absolutely no problem after removing the substrate. But the reasons I removed it were the same as detailed here... too dirty looking, hard to keep clean, a potential nutrient sink. But that was my opinion of the esthetics, there were never any problems resulting from the substrate. I never experienced all of the supposed pitfalls that sand bottom owners have to fear. My nitrates were very low (cus of the daily w/c I'm sure) and there was no signs of anaerobic activity in the sand... no toxic bubbles coming up from it.

It was a continual battle with me between having sand & getting rid of it. In the end the reason I left the hobby was because of the incessant maintenance required for Discus. Daily w/c of 50% or more, bb being a necessity to maintain a starkly sterile tank etc. So when I flipped to s/w I didn't want to begin with the same attitude. So I've got about 2" of sand in a 65g tank. I don't siphon it, though I may start to if I see crap collecting on it. If it bothers me in the long run I'll just siphon it out like I did with my f/w tank. IMO a bare tank looks out of place and I hope I don't end up there. I've seen mature bb s/w tanks and I don't like them.

I've also owned a LFS and I know that if I told customers that had substrate that as a result of having substrate they should do a lot more mtce on their tanks to alleviate the risks, they might leave the hobby too. On the other hand, if you tell your sand bottomed customers to leave the sand alone and let the tank handle it itself they might be more satisfied. You can bend the reality to fit your own preferences. And statistics can be used to prove anything.

[Johnny Reefer]

Originally Posted by Dave C

...... And statistics can be used to prove anything.

Well what I'd like to know is how many dentists have office aquariums. 4 out of 5?

Cheers,

[medican]

Thanks Chin, your absolutly right. Old farts like me that get cranky after 10 should not post after that time,,,,,,

Dave I think you hit the nail on the head, well said......

[Reefer Rob]

I wonder if anyone has done a side by side test of BB vers. sand. Start 2 identical tanks side by side, one with sand, one without, and see what happens over time. So far I have only seen speculation. Another experiment would be to wrap a small peice of shrimp in mesh and bury it 1/2" below the surface of the sand. In a week or so dig it up. If it's empty the sandbed is working, if the shrimp is still there (in any form) then it could be said detritus can collect in a sand bed

[albert_dao]

It's not even about nutrients, it's about ease of maintanance. I won't argue about the merits of a proper DSB, but the whole concept is moot since there's no actual means to do one properly in my area.

Anyway, I just wanted to clarify why I'm such an advocate of BB:

- Maintanance time is cut down significantly. I spend twenty minutes a week on a 130 and it looks pristine. I've lost a lot of people to the time demands that a substrate places on them. Again, I don't buy into the leave it be philosophy on non-DSB set ups; once you've dealt with the numbers of people I have, you wouldn't either.

- Massive flow becomes a viable option. This is self explanatory.

- Advances in skimming and aggressive nutrient control (Phosban reactors, Zeovit, Sulphur denitrators, etc) have paved the way for substrate-free stability.

- I like the look of BB. Yes, you read that right, I like the sterile look. It's the same kind of aesthetics sense that makes me prefer cityscapes over mountain vistas.

Anyway, I'm like five minutes late for work. Later guys.

[Doug]

Originally Posted by Reefer Rob

Sand beds need to be cleaned?? The #1 rule of sand beds is... leave them alone. Let the critters do the work of stiring and cleaning. With enough current nothing will settle on them. Albert, I've read a lot of your posts, and I respect your opinions, but you need do need to chill a bit.

If I may use your post as a quote.

Where does the detritus go in an aquarium with a sandbed. I have had some very nice tanks with dsb,s but never long enough to qualify an answer for long term use. I now run bare and the amout of detritus build up is unbelievable, as many that have gone that route have suggested.

Most of bare bottomed tanks run more current than dsb tanks, so keeping it in suspension is not the question. I have had near everything available to "keep the sand clean", in some of my tanks. I never did then nor do I now understand how they keep the bed clean. Even believe even Ron suggested they have a limited life and should be partially removed & replaced at times, the same as our live rock.

I disagree that sandbeds are more work, if anything they are less work. What they are, is more $$$$$$$$, both for the sand & the critters needed to "keep them clean". My bare bottomed tank andmost others I know, need detrius siphoning nearly every water change, something I never did with a dsb.

I did like the look of my dsb,s despite their taking up of 4 inches of my tank and I liked many of the creatures I kept to clean it. But when I see the crap that comes from my tank & some of my older rock now, I just shake my head thinking of where it all went before.

[Dave C]

Having said all of that, I did some followup reading on RC and decided to buy some starboard and go bb on the 225g tank. I just know that watching the sand load up with crap will drive me nuts in the long run. This way I'll have the 65g tank with sand and the 225g without and I'll be able to make a educated comparison. Funny enough, the cost of the starboard including shipping & exchange was almost exactly what I was going to spend on the sand.

[Flusher]

Originally Posted by Doug

But when I see the crap that comes from my tank & some of my older rock now, I just shake my head thinking of where it all went before.

Doesn't it just dissolve into the water column, then gets removed by water changes and skimmers? That was always my understanding, coming from my freshwater experiences (minus the skimmer part, of course). Once I got into planted tanks, I quit siphoning the substrate completely. I never had a problem.

My nano tank has been running for a year with a 1.5 - 2" sand bed that I've never siphoned. I've never had nitrates register yet. Granted, a year isn't a long time, and such a small tank makes it easy to do weekly 15% water changes (that's total volume, not actual volume after accounting for whatever is taking up room in the tank). Also, I quite like the look of the colourful layers in the substrate. I guess this is the crap that drives some people nuts.

At any rate, with my new 24 G tank almost set up, I've decided to go with under 1" of fresh aragonite in all three of my tanks. Hopefully nassarius snails will do a sufficient job rooting through the substrate.
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Ipad cases

[Doug]

Originally Posted by Flusher

Doesn't it just dissolve into the water column, then gets removed by water changes and skimmers? That was always my understanding, coming from my freshwater experiences (minus the skimmer part, of course). Once I got into planted tanks, I quit siphoning the substrate completely. I never had a problem.

Its the detritus that settles and build in piles where the current cant keep it suspended. I would say the organics would be in the water and removed by skimming ,{which also removes visable detritus}, and water changes.

My nano tank has been running for a year with a 1.5 - 2" sand bed that I've never siphoned. I've never had nitrates register yet.

I never had a nitrate problem with a dsb, as its excellent at denitrification. Its the build up of phosphates in the sandbed, as in detritus piles in barebottem, or in the sumps or in partical filters, like filter wool or the socks used now. Thats why they need cleaning on a regular basis.

It should also be noted, although I run bare now, {sounded funny}, I still see nothing wrong with running a shallow or dsb if one wishes. Its just that they also require maintance to keep them functioning correctly and not just a bunch of costly items from an lfs.

[reeferaddict]

Here's how I keep my DSB fresh.... Engineer Goby, Brittle Stars, Sand Sifting stars, Sand sifting snails and about 30 or 40 Cerith snails... I have no phosphates... nitrates down to <10ppm with the help of my biodenitrator, and not a spec of algae to be seen anymore... Christy will attest to that... Corraline is growing almost TOO much... and I finally have good polyp extension AND growth... And I feed what most of you would deem as too much... my fish are fat and healthy... Oh and did I mention that I'm getting some of the most spectacular colours I have seen?

DSB or BB is a difference in philosophy and approaches... there is no ONE way to do things in this hobby. Yes I would agree that DSB is more work and more $$$, but I love the look, and the animals that live in the bed... they make the whole ecosystem more interesting and like nature IMHO.

I am in the midst of setting up a 37g frag tank that will be BB just for the maintenance aspect, so it's not that I'm not open minded. Just a matter of preference IMO...