Advice on Nitrate/Phosphate problems

[Chin_Lee]

Isn't this is kinda a silly debate?
From one perspective, Albert (in his experience as a retailer) believes he has formed a correlation between the people who quit the hobby after they started an aquarium with a sandbed and the people who remain in the hobby after they started an aquarium with barebottom.
From another perspective, Richard (medican) doesn't believe Albert.

So......... point taken.

a learning curve is about learning NOT decisions.

there is a definite correlation between a learning curve and decisions you do make because if it didn't, then you didn't learn anything.

[Dave C]

I'm too new to sw to have a valid opinion on the benefits/negatives of sand. But I had Discus for years and the same bb vs. substrate argument raged although there were different aspects to it. One thing that was always said was that removing the sand would cause a catastrophe, and that's been said here too. I disproved that here when I removed all sand/substrate from my planted tank. I had absolutely no problem after removing the substrate. But the reasons I removed it were the same as detailed here... too dirty looking, hard to keep clean, a potential nutrient sink. But that was my opinion of the esthetics, there were never any problems resulting from the substrate. I never experienced all of the supposed pitfalls that sand bottom owners have to fear. My nitrates were very low (cus of the daily w/c I'm sure) and there was no signs of anaerobic activity in the sand... no toxic bubbles coming up from it.

It was a continual battle with me between having sand & getting rid of it. In the end the reason I left the hobby was because of the incessant maintenance required for Discus. Daily w/c of 50% or more, bb being a necessity to maintain a starkly sterile tank etc. So when I flipped to s/w I didn't want to begin with the same attitude. So I've got about 2" of sand in a 65g tank. I don't siphon it, though I may start to if I see crap collecting on it. If it bothers me in the long run I'll just siphon it out like I did with my f/w tank. IMO a bare tank looks out of place and I hope I don't end up there. I've seen mature bb s/w tanks and I don't like them.

I've also owned a LFS and I know that if I told customers that had substrate that as a result of having substrate they should do a lot more mtce on their tanks to alleviate the risks, they might leave the hobby too. On the other hand, if you tell your sand bottomed customers to leave the sand alone and let the tank handle it itself they might be more satisfied. You can bend the reality to fit your own preferences. And statistics can be used to prove anything.

[Johnny Reefer]

Originally Posted by Dave C

...... And statistics can be used to prove anything.

Well what I'd like to know is how many dentists have office aquariums. 4 out of 5?

Cheers,

[medican]

Thanks Chin, your absolutly right. Old farts like me that get cranky after 10 should not post after that time,,,,,,

Dave I think you hit the nail on the head, well said......

[Reefer Rob]

I wonder if anyone has done a side by side test of BB vers. sand. Start 2 identical tanks side by side, one with sand, one without, and see what happens over time. So far I have only seen speculation. Another experiment would be to wrap a small peice of shrimp in mesh and bury it 1/2" below the surface of the sand. In a week or so dig it up. If it's empty the sandbed is working, if the shrimp is still there (in any form) then it could be said detritus can collect in a sand bed

[albert_dao]

It's not even about nutrients, it's about ease of maintanance. I won't argue about the merits of a proper DSB, but the whole concept is moot since there's no actual means to do one properly in my area.

Anyway, I just wanted to clarify why I'm such an advocate of BB:

- Maintanance time is cut down significantly. I spend twenty minutes a week on a 130 and it looks pristine. I've lost a lot of people to the time demands that a substrate places on them. Again, I don't buy into the leave it be philosophy on non-DSB set ups; once you've dealt with the numbers of people I have, you wouldn't either.

- Massive flow becomes a viable option. This is self explanatory.

- Advances in skimming and aggressive nutrient control (Phosban reactors, Zeovit, Sulphur denitrators, etc) have paved the way for substrate-free stability.

- I like the look of BB. Yes, you read that right, I like the sterile look. It's the same kind of aesthetics sense that makes me prefer cityscapes over mountain vistas.

Anyway, I'm like five minutes late for work. Later guys.