Advice on Nitrate/Phosphate problems

[albert_dao]

Originally Posted by AndyL

6/10 People with sand beds quit? So whats the percentage of bare bottom who quit - bet it's about the same. Sandbed has little/nothing to do with people quitting. Contrary to the Pro BB sect's belief.

Wrong.

I keep track Andy. None of my barebottom customers have quit. We're talking the last two years here.

I don't just whip random sh1t out of my a$$ and try to pass it off as fact.

[AndyL]

I'd love to see the names - cuz honestly I doubt that - as the drop out rate in this hobby is very high - BB or SB isn't going to make a difference.

[albert_dao]

I don't see why you doubt me.

[medican]

Originally Posted by albert_dao

I don't just whip random sh1t out of my a$$ and try to pass it off as fact.

Wrong

Well thats good to hear Albert......

I'm with you Andy.....

It's not the sandbed I think it's the learning curve once you get into this hobby. You drop a ton of $$ at a store where you hope there info is correct, and acording to them it is. You get home and set up.....now its time for the 17 trips back for odds and ends you forgot or dident know you needed(cant find it all). Then you relize what you have spent and if you have a wife YOUR DEAD...

Then you change and upgrade to beat the band.... my first tank twice over....

Then, all the leasons you learn the hard way witch cost you $$$$

Then the wife thing again......

If you are ever happy with your tank it just means that your planning to buy something BIGGER and BETTER....

If you get through all of that .......

And your still married..... and still have a tank

You get to be one of us that have more than just a screw loose and love this hobby.........

6/10 will quite because they truly don't love the hobby....


P.S

I don't just whip random sh1t out of my a$$ and try to pass it off as fact.


LMAO

[albert_dao]

Here's the causation behind my statement:

- Sand bed tanks take two to ten times longer than BB tanks to clean.

- People are not able to keep up with three to five hour a week cleaning routines.

- The tank quality begins to decline and people lose further motivation to work on their tank due to lack of results when they do.

- Cichlids can be pretty damn colorful.

- Wife factor kicks in = quit.

This completely skips the whole nutrient arguement. There's a whole host of reasons for running BB there, but that's a matter of personal aesthetics when you really boil it down.

I suppose the last thing I'll add to this facet of the argument is: How many customers does everyone here have to base their claims on? I have most of Calgary's hobby base.

[Reefer Rob]

Sand beds need to be cleaned?? The #1 rule of sand beds is... leave them alone. Let the critters do the work of stiring and cleaning. With enough current nothing will settle on them. Albert, I've read a lot of your posts, and I respect your opinions, but you need do need to chill a bit.

[albert_dao]

Hmmm? My apologies, I'm not trying to be confrontational, but I also dislike being taken for an idiot.

Anyway, you are 100% correct, but the context is wrong. DSB's should not be disturbed and that assumes that the user has access to real live sand with real sand dwelling organisms:

- Worms from your live rock are not good enough. They are not true sand dwelling organisms and will not overturn the top layers of your sand. That's why the tracks you see in your sand now are the same tracks you're going to see three days, four weeks, six months from now. At this rate, the removal of detritus is a losing battle and the sand WILL reach critical mass and crash your system. I don't know about the rest of Canada, but no one here brings in live sand. It's not profitable and hard to maintain properly in a retail environment without dedicated holding tanks.

- Non-DSB sandbeds do not develope the type of positive anaerobic activity that people are aiming for. They just collect detritus. Again, the above point applies.

- The only form in which I could possibly justify sand is if a person absolutely cannot stand the look of bare bottom. In that case, a thin layer of sand (less than 0.5") is acceptable as long as it's vacuumed regularily (at least once a week) and replaced every six months.

I have a lot of strong opinions, not because I'm belligerant, but because I have accumulated experience and it does me well to pass on that knowledge.

[medican]

Thanks for clearing that up........

[albert_dao]

1. when you clean your sand bed you release a bunch of the stuff we try to get rid of in our tanks. The sand bed has its purpose and one of those is to filter that stuff. we keep the small critters there to clean the sand bed to keep it in check. When you change from a sand bed to a BB the release of nitrates is huge. No O2=denitrifying bacteria....but I'm sure you know that.

That's the thing, you DON'T GET THESE CRITTERS! Access to animals like burrowing crustaceans and worms is rather... nonexistant in Alberta, probably all of Canada. Hell, I've never seen them for sale in the states, only bristleworm packages. Again, unless you have access to proper live sand to top off a DSB, you're pretty much setting up a time bomb.

2. If your telling your customers to clean there sand bed, no wonder there tanks don’t thrive. So if you leave it alone like your supposed to, cleaning takes less time unless you like to look at all the crap on the bottom(until it grows over)

1. I don't start my customers with sand. I haven't in almost two years now. If they have sand, it's either because they started under someone else's guidance or they couldn't stand the look of BB. In the latter case, I recommend a super thin sandbed.

2. Anyone who has approached me with problems generally DID NOT touch their sand bed. In those instances, removal of the sandbed WAS the solution. I can't even count the number of times I've heard someone say to me "I'm never going back to sand".

3. As I've insinuated in my other comments, leaving your sandbed alone is NOT a viable option for long term survival of a reef tank. What if you need to move your rock to catch a fish or pick up a piece of coral that's fallen behind your tank? Do you risk crashing your tank each time that happens? I don't think most of us get into this hobby because we need to add another aspect to our gambling addictions.

Did you just claim to have the largest salt water customer base??????
Now you run a good shop but I think you’re a little full of yourself

I knew I was going to get grilled for that one, but what's done is done. I apologize for the remark. But like I've said before, it's in my best interest to keep people in the hobby. I'm not spewing misinformation, nor am I being unreasonable. My explanations were objective and I did provide a counterpoint (thin sandbed).

And yes, I do have the largest SW customer base in Calgary. I don't think anyone is going to deny that.

[Doug]

Originally Posted by Reefer Rob

Sand beds need to be cleaned?? The #1 rule of sand beds is... leave them alone. Let the critters do the work of stiring and cleaning. With enough current nothing will settle on them. Albert, I've read a lot of your posts, and I respect your opinions, but you need do need to chill a bit.

If I may use your post as a quote.

Where does the detritus go in an aquarium with a sandbed. I have had some very nice tanks with dsb,s but never long enough to qualify an answer for long term use. I now run bare and the amout of detritus build up is unbelievable, as many that have gone that route have suggested.

Most of bare bottomed tanks run more current than dsb tanks, so keeping it in suspension is not the question. I have had near everything available to "keep the sand clean", in some of my tanks. I never did then nor do I now understand how they keep the bed clean. Even believe even Ron suggested they have a limited life and should be partially removed & replaced at times, the same as our live rock.

I disagree that sandbeds are more work, if anything they are less work. What they are, is more $$$$$$$$, both for the sand & the critters needed to "keep them clean". My bare bottomed tank andmost others I know, need detrius siphoning nearly every water change, something I never did with a dsb.

I did like the look of my dsb,s despite their taking up of 4 inches of my tank and I liked many of the creatures I kept to clean it. But when I see the crap that comes from my tank & some of my older rock now, I just shake my head thinking of where it all went before.