LFS shoot themselves in the foot

[Stasher]

Originally Posted by Willow

all it takes is to tell your lfs why you aren’t going to shop their and where you will shop and why. if they tell you to knock yourself out, go shop else where. the internet and shipping can be great asset in this hobby. be informed when you shop and tell your lfs to cut you some breaks when you bust them on their prices, if they go out of business because they are relying on people spending 99 bucks on a pail of salt they should probably be in another type of business.

This is basically what I believe.....Running a business requires give and take. Your customers are what keep you in business, you need to respond to their needs and stay at par with the industry.

[JohnM99]

Don't get me wrong about wanting to support local business - and I certainly understand the cost of employees, insurance, spoilage, rent etc - but the amount of markup has to be within reason - and it is bad business. I am sure I am not the only one driven away by a silly markup.

The $50 is not really the point - this hobby is a luxury, and I have spent well into 5 figures and then some - but it just bugs me to see that kind of a markup. I bought a pair of speakers from a high end, small volume audiophile store this week - they were not really all that much higher than the rock bottom web price plus shipping - so why is it different for a LFS? I guess they get away with it.

As for J&L I know they have higher expenses than perhaps Premium Aquatics does - but they are usually closer than that in their pricing - I wonder if the recent rise in the CN $ has yet to be caught up with - ie they bought their stock a while ago at a lower $ value which is still reflected in the price.

Anyway, I will wait 3 days and see what their Boxing Day sale brings. My old Scottish grandfather (who would be 113 now) would roll over in his grave if I didn't.

[tsakin]

Originally Posted by JohnM99

Don't get me wrong about wanting to support local business - and I certainly understand the cost of employees, insurance, spoilage, rent etc - but the amount of markup has to be within reason - and it is bad business. I am sure I am not the only one driven away by a silly markup.

I've tried to reply to threads like this before and it usually ends up being a flame fest, I hope it doesn't this time.

I work in a Calgary idependant LFS so I have a good idea why this happens. The first bit, J&L etc. being so much less expensive than your LFS is a bit of a puzzler. The reason for this, and I'm being absolutely honest here, is that J&L often has equipment like skimmers listed on the website for less than the LFS pays for it from major wholesalers. Quite a bit less in some cases.

I don't know how they do it, the only thing that makes a little sense is that they buy stuff by the truckload and get a steep discount. This is obviously not an option for a smaller store that sells 6 of them a month.

The markup thing is often a misunderstanding. Given rent, employees and all the rest you need a 200% markup usually ($100 to $200). That's they way it is in retail everywhere not just the LFS. You can find higher markups in some sectors but very rarely lower.

So here's the unpopular part and I'm not just trying to protect my part time job. I think that we should still do what we can to support our LFS even if it costs us some. There are the usual argumants for this, J&L (an example, I'm not anti J&L in any way) isn't going to fed ex you a part at 4pm on Saturday but that one doesn't carry much weight. The simple reason is that the LFS is what got you into this hobby. If all we had left were chain stores and online I doubt many of us would be doing serious fish keeping or reefs if we didn't have a cool independant LFS to show us what's possible and guide us through our first little steps.

Places like Walmart may have all the cheap Chinese manufactured goods you can shake a stick at but they also help reinforce a level of mediocrity I don't like much. You aren't going to find XM bulbs or beckett skimmers at Walmart any more than you will at Pet Smart or the other Big Box pet shops but you can get some filter media while you pick up your prescription and a jug of milk. There have been a lot of retail sectors destroyed by Big Box stores this way. They take the bread and butter item sales away from smaller shops, seriously impacting the bottom line and the shops disapear taking with them more specialized items and knowledge. I mean really, ever ask somebody at Home Depot for help with something?

I think that that is the same kind of pressure your LFS is could eventully be under from online retailers. There isn't an easy answer, why pay twice as much for a light fixture, I don't do it either. I hope that people think about this stuff though, we need to support local stores somehow. I hope that his will maybe remove some of the bitterness concerning the "big markup" though, I can see why it may look that way but it really doesn't happen.

[Invigor]

the only thing a local store can offer me over a mail order store is good service, which to a certain extent, includes reasonable prices.

Most stores here do not offer good service or good prices, so that leaves me no choice but to go elsewhere.

[robzilla]

Originally Posted by tsakin

I've tried to reply to threads like this before and it usually ends up being a flame fest, I hope it doesn't this time.

I work in a Calgary idependant LFS so I have a good idea why this happens. The first bit, J&L etc. being so much less expensive than your LFS is a bit of a puzzler. The reason for this, and I'm being absolutely honest here, is that J&L often has equipment like skimmers listed on the website for less than the LFS pays for it from major wholesalers. Quite a bit less in some cases.

I don't know how they do it, the only thing that makes a little sense is that they buy stuff by the truckload and get a steep discount. This is obviously not an option for a smaller store that sells 6 of them a month.

The markup thing is often a misunderstanding. Given rent, employees and all the rest you need a 200% markup usually ($100 to $200). That's they way it is in retail everywhere not just the LFS. You can find higher markups in some sectors but very rarely lower.

So here's the unpopular part and I'm not just trying to protect my part time job. I think that we should still do what we can to support our LFS even if it costs us some. There are the usual argumants for this, J&L (an example, I'm not anti J&L in any way) isn't going to fed ex you a part at 4pm on Saturday but that one doesn't carry much weight. The simple reason is that the LFS is what got you into this hobby. If all we had left were chain stores and online I doubt many of us would be doing serious fish keeping or reefs if we didn't have a cool independant LFS to show us what's possible and guide us through our first little steps.

Places like Walmart may have all the cheap Chinese manufactured goods you can shake a stick at but they also help reinforce a level of mediocrity I don't like much. You aren't going to find XM bulbs or beckett skimmers at Walmart any more than you will at Pet Smart or the other Big Box pet shops but you can get some filter media while you pick up your prescription and a jug of milk. There have been a lot of retail sectors destroyed by Big Box stores this way. They take the bread and butter item sales away from smaller shops, seriously impacting the bottom line and the shops disapear taking with them more specialized items and knowledge. I mean really, ever ask somebody at Home Depot for help with something?

I think that that is the same kind of pressure your LFS is could eventully be under from online retailers. There isn't an easy answer, why pay twice as much for a light fixture, I don't do it either. I hope that people think about this stuff though, we need to support local stores somehow. I hope that his will maybe remove some of the bitterness concerning the "big markup" though, I can see why it may look that way but it really doesn't happen.

you mention that j&l has prices lower than your lfs could get. why dont you purchase from j&l and resell it.
the walmart theory, is to sell more at a lower mark up (which may mean buying from the around the world including china) and make up for it in volume. kinda sounds like what j&l does?
in todays competitive market, lfs need to provide something that online retailers cant. they need to be close in price but excell in service/knowledge, and as many others have commented on....many don't.

[Willow]

i think the reason that j&l can sell stuff so cheap is they buy stuff as a wholesaler in bulk and turn around and sell it for less that retail.

[Psyire]

I don't mind paying alittle more at LFS's, but some of their markup is insane. In alot of cases it's double, which is a ton of money when setting up a big system.

I just recently setup a 180g tank and to do it from a LFS would have been like $16-18,000 for the equipment I purchased. Instead I ended up bringing most of it across the border and my bill was just under $10,000.

That's 6000 or more reasons why I can't buy dry goods at LFS's. (I think this also is a Canadian thing, which I'm not sure why when our dollar is 0.85US or better)

[StirCrazy]

Originally Posted by tsakin

I've tried to reply to threads like this before and it usually ends up being a flame fest, I hope it doesn't this time.

The markup thing is often a misunderstanding. Given rent, employees and all the rest you need a 200% markup usually ($100 to $200). That's they way it is in retail everywhere not just the LFS. You can find higher markups in some sectors but very rarely lower.

in most business I agree the average mark up is 100% but in the fish industry it seams to be more like 200% on large items and up to 800% on cheeper things. some of them are understandable but the 200% on a large ticket item is robery. an example of properly aplied mark up is a local fish store on the Island, he doesn't have a lot of compatition so he can set his own prices but yet he sells the 160g IO salt bucket for around 40 bucks, thats cheeper than in Victoria and from some of the previous posts way cheeper than some places and he isn't a big store with a online wholsale. so how does he do it.. simple stuff like salt ect is a consumable and a large purchase.. keep the mark up reasonable and people will be encourage to do more water changes and buy more as it isn't a lot of money. On the other side if you buy a tank or LR (usaly 1 time purchases) I would expect the mark up to be in the 200% plus range depending on the cost of the item.

Originally Posted by tsakin

J&L (an example, I'm not anti J&L in any way) isn't going to fed ex you a part at 4pm on Saturday but that one doesn't carry much weight. The simple reason is that the LFS is what got you into this hobby. If all we had left were chain stores and online I doubt many of us would be doing serious fish keeping or reefs if we didn't have a cool independant LFS to show us what's possible and guide us through our first little steps.

Nope but they did ship a whole order of snails/fish/ect via airplaine with 2 hours notice on a sunday people who haven't been in J&L's do not realize that they are a local mom and pop type store like any other one and if they can do it they will for you. some times they are to busy for emergency things but that can happen anywhere.

Steve

[DanG]

A lot of the cheap goods you are talking about could be loss leaders. Salt for $40, while it may cost them $40 to buy from their supplier, they try to upsell on the rest. How frequently do you go into the lfs to buy just salt and end up buying just salt? I know last time I went for just salt I ended up with a new powerhead and a new mag float....

[StirCrazy]

Originally Posted by DanG

A lot of the cheap goods you are talking about could be loss leaders. Salt for $40, while it may cost them $40 to buy from their supplier, they try to upsell on the rest. How frequently do you go into the lfs to buy just salt and end up buying just salt?

I think he sells it for 45.00 to be exact, so he is making money as J&L is for 39.95. so is he losing no, but he is not making a lot off the salt. as for going in and buying just salt, all the time. I am not a impulse buyer, so I only get what I am goinging for 99% of the time.

Steve