Sad news: baby elephant has died.

[muck]

[Aquattro]

OK, the lounge is for baby elephant topics, not reef stuff. Politics and religion is prolly best left to other places, just because it starts things we don't want happening here. We seem to be on track for the baby long nose and friends in zoos, and I guess that's OK. We can let God and Darwin discuss their differences elsewhere please

[albert_dao]

Actually, I have another thought to add:

In terms of intelligence, there is a lot of evidence that dolphins possess a greater capacity for intelligence then humans (do google search on "dolphins smarter then humans" or something to that degree, there will be a fair amount of results). It's just a matter of need vs. resource vs. environmental demand that prevented them from becoming the dominant species on the planet as far as I'm concerned. That and the power of the posable thumb.

Empathy in animals has been documented in many instances. Hell, there was an award winning two hour documentary on it called "Why dogs smile and chimpanzees cry." I highly suggest for anyone who hasn't seen it to do whatever they can to get their hands on it. Priceless. During this documentary, you'll see countless undeniable examples of animals who experience happiness, anger, sadness, grief, and gratitude. Watching it, I found it hard to attribute these emotions as merely derivative behaviors connated from basic instincts like territorial aggression or maternal bonding.

i was writing my post as god was asked to be left out, I retract my post....

[Beverly]

Originally Posted by Fish

I guess to answer this one, we would have to ask someone who has actually killed someone else in a war. I don't want to keep answering for other people but I think you will find some very sobering responses from our war veterans.

After I posted, I began to question what I said in that paragraph based on the same information you referred to. You beat me to my being able to retract that statement. And it's nor even war vets who have misgivings about killing others. The folks at home often balk at their nation's soldiers killing other people, and you get events like the backlash to the Vietnam war as well as the current displeasure of some Americans over the war being waged in Iraq.

At some point in the future, when the current ice age has fully passed, there will be life-threatening problems concerning water. Either there will be too much in some places because of polar ice caps that have disappeared and coastal water levels have risen wiping out entire cities. Or, there will be too little water in other places because glaciers that once fed rivers along which many cities have grown will become inadequate to serve the populations. How people react to this scenerio will be a true test of how easily we will kill each other..... if some virus doesn't get us all first.

Also, not to worry about continuing to discuss the issues of this thread. I mean, the initial topic was not reef related, and it was started by one of the moderators

[Cap'n]

Originally Posted by Buk_A_neer

LOL ...

this was you saying this as well right ? or was your friend referring to somebody else ?

you dont deny being a tree-hugger though as it is a term you are familiar with right ?

Well, you almost got it right. This was my friend calling me a tree-hugger, just like you did. I never said I was. The term was initially used to describe people who would place themselves between a tree and a lumberjack. I have never done that.

[Delphinus]

I posted about something that meant a lot to me personally. Yes, it had nothing to do with aquariums but I consider the Canreef community my "friends" and thought it was OK to speak frankly amongst friends. If I erred, then I apologize.

one thing I like about this forum is that it is a close community, and it is small enough that we can get to know one another and large enough to be a valuable pool of knowledge....

[Fish]

I couldn't stay away...

Bev,
That is a really good point. And about the water... thanks for adding yet one more thing to have nightmares about!

And also to Albert and Quinn,
I don't want to come across as saying that other animals don't feel fear or love, or compassion. Of course I agree with you. Infact, I believe that we love in return and care more for those animals that seem to have a greator capacity for feeling like we do. No one is really upset by the lobters that are boiled alive but we are all quite saddened by a dolphin getting caught in the same fishing nets. A rare dung beetle getting killed won't ever make the news like the death of a baby elephant will. I believe this is because there is something magical about an elephant and when you look into its eyes you realize that it knows things and feels things about life that we will never know. We all unconsciously rate animals and their importance. Animals that appear to have a greator depth of feeling, elephants, dolphins, dogs, gorrillas all rate higher on the scale. Anyone that values an ant less then a gorrila (I think the majority of us) engages in the same judgement. Some of us stop a few steps short and pick smileing dogs and crying monkeys and some of us follow it right through and chose our own species.
My only point is that, as a whole, our species seems to be the only one that is concerned with the plight of other species, as a whole. I know there have been individual instances that contradict this (a gorrila troup that adopts a human - a person who engages in animal cruelty) but I was commenting as a whole.
Really why do we all feel so guilty for what we are doing to the planet? We are enjoying an incredible period of evolutionary good fortune. We are multiplying and taking up space at the same rate that any other species would if it had no natural predators, abundant resourses, and the ability to heal itself. We are doing what natural selection says we should be doing. So why do we feel guilty? Because we feel responsible for the other creatures on this planet and how our actions are affecting them. All I am saying is that we are the only animal to feel this way. That's all I'm saying.

Oh, and I would also say that whether a person sets the criteria of superiority as 'apparent depth of feeling', 'proficiency with tools', or 'ability to outcompete competitors in Darwins survival of the fittest game', the human race has taken home gold medals is each of these events. Anyone who believes strictly in evolution must accept that we are superior because we are at the top of the food chain! We have, from all appearances, proven the strength of the species. It hasn't even been a close game! The only thing that would stop us from calling ourselves superior (aside from modesty) is the notion of moral superiority. The judges are still out on this one - and so am I.

- Chad

[Cap'n]

Wow, this has been quite the ride. It always feels good to have a discussion on topics people feel strongly about, especially when there are so many different opinions and ideas. I'd like to thank everyone for maintaining relative composure and especially for the wealth of information.

Bev and Chad, some fantastic points in those last few posts. Really got me thinking about the kid in the cage example, and I total empathize with Bev about the dicotomy of keeping fish in a small tank while professing to care about all life on earth. I wish all my fish were tank-raised, but then, how did we learn to breed clownfish without trying many times with wild-caught specimens? One of the things I admire about the reef-culture is the ability to grow and proliferate frags thereby sparing the remaining wild corals.

Those battle stats blew me a way! I never heard of, or considered, such a thing. I always assumed the urge for self preservation would push a soldier to fight in the heat of battle even if they were reluctant to join the war in the first place.

Albert, kudos to you as well. You seem to be one of the few who are truly knowledgeable on both sides of the science / religion issue and have presented both cases in a positive light. And, where can I find that video?

Tony, please don't apologize for starting this, looks like everyone is enjoying themselves. Besides, I'm sure any statement could eventually turn into any one one of the topics covered here if discussed long enough.

Quinn, I think you and I are cut from the same cloth.



Here's something this thread made me think about. Because humans have such an amazing ability to learn and grow it allows individuals to blossom. The unique qualities of each person are hard to define as "nature or nurture". Take us for example, how can a group of people with so much in common be so different? I bet you even have family members that you sometimes consider strangers in their beliefs or values. I wonder if other animals in tight-knit communities have the same individuality?