Ever feel really sad after visiting fish store?

[TimT]

As someone who's been in the industry for a long time there are a few things that need to be said in this thread.

There are good shipments and bad shipments and the fish/corals coming out of them should not be reflective on a store. If a fish shipment gets cold in transit the fish will typically breakdown with ick. This is normal.

There are stores that have separate quarantine systems for newly arrived fish. Their fish are more money. It all boils down to speak with your money but don't expect to get a Mercedes for a Hyundai price. No slight on Hyundai. Ever go to the big American fish stores with the marine biologists on staff, how nice and clean etc. Look at their prices and consider they're in USD which is almost 38% exchange and their costs of supply are cheaper.

18 years ago I was importing Certified Cyanide Free fish. The stores wouldn't buy them because their customers wouldn't pay the higher prices. Even though there was lots of talk about people being willing to pay for Certified Cyanide Free fish.

There's a saying "When you point a finger there are four more fingers pointing back at you". How many people have UV sterilizers on their systems? How many people have Chillers on their systems? How many people have back up generators for their systems? How many people have safety redundancy on their tanks heaters. It saddens me when I hear these stories of people losing their tanks due to easily preventable causes with a little money spent.

This site is not for bashing stores as all stores have their own issues... it's for helping people have the most fun in the hobby.

[dino]

Well said Tim is your personal tank set up yet? It's also a really hard industry to make a go at.

[TimT]

Originally Posted by dino

Well said Tim is your personal tank set up yet? It's also a really hard industry to make a go at.

No my personal tank is not set up yet as the power here is quite unstable. Lots of 1 minute power failures which can make the Korallia's run backwards. Until I get a UPS I won't be setting up. It's just going to be a 29gallon Biocube and a UPS will keep it running for days. LoL

You are correct in it being a hard industry to make a go of. Lots of people do stupid things and it costs $1000's in dead animals. I once had Cathay Pacific Airlines screw up a booking and an Aussie acro shipment sat in Hong Kong baking for 16hrs. Needless to say I have a collection of Aussie acro skeletons up to 8" across. Another time Cathay Pacific put a shipment in the cooler overnight(7hrs) because they were too cheap to heat the warehouse overnight. Warehouse was -4°c overnight while the cooler was only 4°C. Needless to say there was fish fertilizer made using Laboutei Fairy Wrasse, Scotts Fairy wrasse, Yellow and Blue Assessors etc.

Originally Posted by Animal-Chin

I've seen $600 6 inch cross hatch triggerfish in a 20 gallon tank lying on the bottom.

When Crosshatch triggers come in they are very shy and hide for at least a month, sometimes longer. Kinda similar to a Blue Throat Trigger. If the 20 gallon tank is on a central system then there is more than enough life support for the trigger.

[Animal-Chin]

This is why its our job to take responsibility for our purchases. I've had issues with livestock from every local store. Velvet, acro flatworms, you name it I've purchased it and brought it home. There are issues with every local store in the area. I've seen entire shipments of really nice sps turn totally brown in one store due to poor lighting and I've seen another store trying to sell totally dead sps. I've seen large tanks with 50 baby hippo tangs die off in days because of the disease they brought in. I've seen $600 6 inch cross hatch triggerfish in a 20 gallon tank lying on the bottom. I've seen zoa colonies with more aptasia than zoa's on them.

There is a lot of bad merch in our local stores, if you find one crosses the line say something or stop shopping there. Most importantly be careful when your buying. If you REALLY REALLY want a Naso Tang and the store only has one skinny rough looking one, don't buy it, wait for a healthy shipment to come in. I feel bad for first time shoppers, its easy to make mistakes. My first coral was covered in green briopsis algae that at the time I thought was a bonus cause you get a coral with a plant for the same price...lol

Side note, the very first reef tank I bought was a biocube from a local store and while I was buying it they asked if I had researched before I came in. I said I saw some stuff online and they asked if I ever went to Can Reef. I said now and they said good because you can't believe anything you read on can reef, the people here are horrible...lol That LFS is now out of business but man did they hate Can Reef.

[Dearth]

This is why I deal with reputable LFS only if you shop local for convenience at a place where you know fish, coral and inverts are in bad shape then deal with it confront the manager sales staff. Sometimes it's as simple as education sometimes the staff don't care and are just taking your money.

Yes I've sympathy bought before just because I felt sorry for the fish but sick and starving fish are a good way to infect/kill your tank.

If you shop for convenience why not save up and go to a reputable LFS where you know the livestock is well cared for. Using excuses like the inconvenience of shipping or the inconvenience driving up to 4 hrs away for livestock doesn't wash with me. I live in the north it is no more difficult for me to order than someone who lives in a major centre with a store 20 minutes away. It's inevitable if you stay in the hobby long enough you will get a bad order it happens.

Basically don't sympathy buy or feel like your saving xx livestock from so and so store because you end up paying the price. As I said confront the staff/manager sometimes it's as simple as education other times all they want is your money.

[Myka]

Originally Posted by TimT

As someone who's been in the industry for a long time there are a few things that need to be said in this thread.

There are good shipments and bad shipments and the fish/corals coming out of them should not be reflective on a store. If a fish shipment gets cold in transit the fish will typically breakdown with ick. This is normal.

There are stores that have separate quarantine systems for newly arrived fish. Their fish are more money. It all boils down to speak with your money but don't expect to get a Mercedes for a Hyundai price. No slight on Hyundai. Ever go to the big American fish stores with the marine biologists on staff, how nice and clean etc. Look at their prices and consider they're in USD which is almost 38% exchange and their costs of supply are cheaper.

18 years ago I was importing Certified Cyanide Free fish. The stores wouldn't buy them because their customers wouldn't pay the higher prices. Even though there was lots of talk about people being willing to pay for Certified Cyanide Free fish.

There's a saying "When you point a finger there are four more fingers pointing back at you". How many people have UV sterilizers on their systems? How many people have Chillers on their systems? How many people have back up generators for their systems? How many people have safety redundancy on their tanks heaters. It saddens me when I hear these stories of people losing their tanks due to easily preventable causes with a little money spent.

This site is not for bashing stores as all stores have their own issues... it's for helping people have the most fun in the hobby.

Well said Tim. Consumers rarely understand this. Consumers want the cheapest livestock around, and then whine and complain when the cheapest livestock is also in the poorest condition. Or even when a good business gets screwed on a poor shipment because it got too hot or too cold or was packaged poorly. People forget that most of these shipments are coming from third world countries, they are shipped in cheap, thin sytrofoam boxes that are often broken upon arrival, they are in transit usually for 24-48 hours, and they are shipped without heat packs because the country they leave is 30C! If you stop and think about it for a minute or two, it's not surprising that animals may arrive stressed!

Vote with your dollar people!

[Animal-Chin]

Don't forget the fact that the fish are starved for days before shipping so they don't poop in the bag. It is amazing that fish survive the trip as well as they do.

First question I always ask the store, how long has this fish been here, second question, is it eating and a lot of times I ask to see it eat. The stores are always more than happy to drop some mysis in the tank. I've walked away from fish that would just swim by the food.

But all that being said, if you own a fish store and you're putting 6 inch triggers in a 20 gallon tank you may want to rethink that...or not...

[Potatohead]

Originally Posted by Myka

Well said Tim. Consumers rarely understand this. Consumers want the cheapest livestock around, and then whine and complain when the cheapest livestock is also in the poorest condition. Or even when a good business gets screwed on a poor shipment because it got too hot or too cold or was packaged poorly. People forget that most of these shipments are coming from third world countries, they are shipped in cheap, thin sytrofoam boxes that are often broken upon arrival, they are in transit usually for 24-48 hours, and they are shipped without heat packs because the country they leave is 30C! If you stop and think about it for a minute or two, it's not surprising that animals may arrive stressed!

Vote with your dollar people!

I already mentioned I would absolutely do this if it were possible, so where is it possible? I didn't realize it was an option up here. I have brought fish across the border before but it is a major hassle with customs so to find someone in Canada would be great.

[Jakegr]

Originally Posted by Myka

Well said Tim. Consumers rarely understand this. Consumers want the cheapest livestock around, and then whine and complain when the cheapest livestock is also in the poorest condition. Or even when a good business gets screwed on a poor shipment because it got too hot or too cold or was packaged poorly. People forget that most of these shipments are coming from third world countries, they are shipped in cheap, thin sytrofoam boxes that are often broken upon arrival, they are in transit usually for 24-48 hours, and they are shipped without heat packs because the country they leave is 30C! If you stop and think about it for a minute or two, it's not surprising that animals may arrive stressed!

Vote with your dollar people!

That is definitely the other side of things! Consumers, if given the choice, will always trend towards the less expensive option. Fish stores need to stay in business and attract customers. I don't blame them for doing things to keep costs down.

That being said, I truly believe the entire industry (from supply to store) needs to be reformed. Animal welfare in the aquarium hobby is abysmal due to the supply chain. Similar stories have occurred in other sectors, ranging from puppy mills to the importation of exotic birds. The government needs to get involved and regulate the aquarium hobby in Canada, in my opinion. I doubt it will reform on it's own.

Poor animal welfare needs to be looked at independently of economics. It is no longer acceptable in today's society. The only reason the aquarium hobby has lagged behind others is that the general public do not perceive fish in the same way they do a puppy, but I think that gap is narrowing. If the industry doesn't improve welfare, I believe it will eventually be shut down.

I'm not blaming stores for this problem! It is a top to bottom issue that requires the entire industry to change it's format (many will think this is unrealistic I suspect). There are many positives, such as employment in developing countries, advancing fish husbandry, boosting local economies, etc. We just need to start looking out for the health and welfare of the animals that are the bottom of it all.

Everyone, please do not rip me to shreds over my opinion

[Dash]

I get that there is the business side of selling fish. I've driven out to every store in our area because I'm crazy about this wonderful new hobby. This is the first time I came away with such negative feelings. These guys were on death's doorstep, kept in tiny tanks. Not just the porcs but there was a dogface that was curled up and barely breathing, didn't react when 2 other fish started nosing at him. So yes, I will vote with my dollar & not shop there.