An observation about sand and fine sand

[Samw]

Originally Posted by Aquattro

I like sand...

So do I. That's why I replaced mine with new sand. My old sand was turning black and had Hydrogen Sulfide. Is that bad?

The good news is that my hair algae is gone completely and I've had to feed my turbo snails nori ever since. Previously, there was enough algae for all of the herbivoires to eat and the algae would grow back to provide more food for them.

[albert_dao]

This is gonna get wordy:

Originally Posted by sumpfinfishe

I also wanted to mention Albert that I know there are benefits to going/starting BB, and there are many beautiful BB tanks in this hobby, so it simply boils down to personal preference. I do believe however that most algae problems can be avoided, whether it be closer monitoring, consistent water changes, getting overwhelmed with fancy chemicals or relying on too many technical products to list a few.

Sometimes you get old tank syndrome. Sometimes you started off the wrong foot and didn't have the best set up. The list goes on. I agree with you, these problems can be avoided, but it assumes you're going into your tank as an experienced hobbyist.

Originally Posted by sumpfinfishe

Taking two steps backward to figure out why something is wrong is better than taking one step forward in the wrong direction.

Old tank syndrome is easy to figure out - Buildup of organics bound to substrates. You can't exactly just ditch your rock structures, so sands up for the chopping block.

Originally Posted by Reef Pilot

Sorry if it has been said already, but easiest way to keep your sand clean is with an orange spot sleeper goby. They are tireless workers, (and interesting to watch, too) and their constant sand sifting ensures that any detritus is taken away by the water column and out through your overflows.

I don't agree with this. They will assist with sand they can get at. And that's it. They're industrious, not magic.

Originally Posted by Aquattro

If you have an algae problem, and if it won't go away, and you may have had high PO4 levels and you have sand, it's then plausible that said sand is binding the suspected PO4 within it's porous structure AND therefore, removing and/or replacing said sand "could" alleviate or eliminate the original problem of algae in a tank.
That about it, Albert?

Hey, someone addressed the topic without flaming me! *Awkward hug*

Originally Posted by Aquattro

Gobies won't clean it, sifters won't sift it, chemicals may leach it back out, but a quick way to fix is to remove. As an option. If you wanted to fix it quickly. It may or may not appeal to your aesthetic sensibilities, but can and often does fix a particular problem.

Bingo.

Originally Posted by Aquattro

Mental note, install breathalyser on Submit button

Do you find that your propensity for fun diminishes as you get older? -____-

Originally Posted by Reef Pilot

Well, for me it is pretty simple:
Goby = no algae on sand
No Goby = algae on sand

And my P04 is consistently zero or near zero (Hanna checker). But yes, am sure sand traps P04. That's what the Goby is for. He stirs it up and it is taken away by the water column. Like I said, that is the easiest solution (instead of changing or frequently vacuuming your sand).

Walter, I don't mean to point out the obvious, but your formula doesn't work for everyone. I sell tons of those gobies. I still see people with nutrient buildup issues because of their rock work, crappy skimmers, not enough flow, etc, etc, etc. Sure, they could improve these aspects, but that doesn't change the fact that they went for however long with crap advice and crap setups which led to the problem in the first place. How do you solve for x when x is years of sh1tty tank? Often, removing the sand and running it BB for a few water change cycles is the easiest and most effective option.

I feel there's a lot of resistance here because people think pulling out sand is hard or messy. It's not. Here's what you do:

Materials
• 3/4" or larger ID hose
• enough buckets to cover your regular water change
• a helping hand (you will need someone to keep the hose from flooding and to break up clogs in the hose

Method
1. Set all your buckets up in front of the tank.
2. Start siphon and shove hose into the sand. Pick up as much as you can.
3. When all your buckets are full, stop. You don't need to get all of the sand in one go. Spread it over several water changes if you have to.

That's it. Using a hose, you won't cloud up and crash your tank. Having a helping hand will keep you from putting your foot through your sump.

[lastlight]

It's certainly easy to remove. I did my entire 93 thru a hose as part of my water change. Tank was still crystal clear when I was done. I baste my sand regularly with 50 micron socks in overnight as a way to live with the crap trap that is a sandbed.

[Reef Pilot]

Originally Posted by albert_dao

Walter, I don't mean to point out the obvious, but your formula doesn't work for everyone. I sell tons of those gobies. I still see people with nutrient buildup issues because of their rock work, crappy skimmers, not enough flow, etc, etc, etc. Sure, they could improve these aspects, but that doesn't change the fact that they went for however long with crap advice and crap setups which led to the problem in the first place. How do you solve for x when x is years of sh1tty tank? Often, removing the sand and running it BB for a few water change cycles is the easiest and most effective option.

Well, sorry to disagree with you, Albert. But I have had gobies, and not had gobies. When I had a goby (Orange Spot Sleeper), never (and I mean never, ever) had algae on my sand, and it always looked pristine white. When I didn't have a goby, in a short time, the sand would lose its pristine color (more brown at first) and eventually algae (the aggressive green stuff would start in). I could keep it clean with vacuuming, but that was extra work that just wasn't required with a goby.

Of course, a Goby is not majic, and does not get rid of your P04 and N03. You need GFO and biopellets for that (or some other equivalent regime). But even with zero P04 and zero N03, and no goby, my sand would still look like crap, unless I vacuumed it.

Nothing against BB tanks as such, but for those who prefer sand, there are ways to keep it clean and pristine looking, without a lot of work, ie get the goby.

And conversely to what you said, Albert, BB does not magically solve your other water issues either. You still need a good skimmer, good flow, and a regime to get rid of your phosphates and nitrates.

[albert_dao]

Originally Posted by Reef Pilot

Well, sorry to disagree with you, Albert. But I have had gobies, and not had gobies. When I had a goby (Orange Spot Sleeper), never (and I mean never, ever) had algae on my sand, and it always looked pristine white. When I didn't have a goby, in a short time, the sand would lose its pristine color (more brown at first) and eventually algae (the aggressive green stuff would start in). I could keep it clean with vacuuming, but that was extra work that just wasn't required with a goby.

Of course, a Goby is not majic, and does not get rid of your P04 and N03. You need GFO and biopellets for that (or some other equivalent regime). But even with zero P04 and zero N03, and no goby, my sand would still look like crap, unless I vacuumed it.

Nothing against BB tanks as such, but for those who prefer sand, there are ways to keep it clean and pristine looking, without a lot of work, ie get the goby.

And conversely to what you said, Albert, BB does not magically solve your other water issues either. You still need a good skimmer, good flow, and a regime to get rid of your phosphates and nitrates.

I'm... not advocating BB. Thomas said that. The argument was to remove sh1tty sand from your tank when you have problems.

[Reef Pilot]

Originally Posted by albert_dao

I'm... not advocating BB. Thomas said that. The argument was to remove sh1tty sand from your tank when you have problems.

Well, that can help, for sure, and same goes for old live rock. But you'll still have problems unless you get your water right, starting with proper test kits.

And I know there is more than one way to get it right, so not arguing that removing sand or going BB is wrong. But it is not the only way, that's for sure. And easy and quick is not always the best solution in the long run.

[Aquattro]

Originally Posted by albert_dao

Do you find that your propensity for fun diminishes as you get older? -____-

Comes in waves. I'm on an upswing right now. Just enjoying the ride. So, you guys still talking about this, huh?
Thought the concept was fairly simple and straight forward. I'm on your side if this gets to the bike rack after school!

[Masonjames]

Originally Posted by albert_dao

I feel there's a lot of resistance here because people think pulling out sand is hard or messy. It's not.

No this isn't the issue. If people HONESTLY thought their sandbed was a potential issue there probably wouldn't be much resistance to removing it.

It's ignorance and or arrogance.

Poster 1:
Removing a sandbed can be beneficial to people who are experiance problems possibly associated with such.

Poster 2: blah blah blah. I have a sandbed and I don't have any issues. This is a
Stupid thread. Clearly this guy hates sand and the way I do things.

Poster 1: but it can help people.

Poster 3: no way man. Bb is ugly. Sand is where it's at.

Poster 4: woe, slow down. We need to make sure people understand that this is not the only way. And by doing so I will show people my way.

Poster 1: but I didn't say it was. I just said it could help people.

Poster 5: no it's not the sandbed. It's because the user of such sandbed sucks at this hobby and is not as awesome as I am. Look, look. It got it figured out.

Poster 6: I might be having issues with my sandbed. Should I remove my sand?

Poster 7: well I guess maybe there is a possibility it could help. But imo you should go to the store, buy more equipment. Because your obviously lacking. Get yourself these fish, and those inverts. Well set you up with some proper dosing, get ya hooked up with all the medias and pellets, and get a nice little macro growing to out compete with all that algae on the sand. Far better plan in my opinion.

Poster 6: oh thanks. You really helped me allot. Sucks this hobby is so expensive and challenging but I guess that's just how it is...

[kien]

I fully admit, I'm ignorant and arrogant.

[Aquattro]

Poster 8: So, you guys still talking about this, huh?