Cannot get rid of cyano!

[MarkoD]

Originally Posted by Nate

I thought I was clear in my last post guess not...

You won with chemiclean yes...

But did 80 gallons of water changes to get your skimmer to calm down yes...

Do you think that the fact that the cyano did not come back, after removing the chemiclean was because maybe you adjusted your water chemistry with that big of a water change?

he did this before chemiclean "I did daily 10% water changes for a month while I was battling the cyano"

10 percent per day for 30 days is more than 20 percent per day for 4 days

[Nate]

Originally Posted by Cal_stir

I do ROUTINE water changes, so why didn't it fix my cyano problem?

I dont know much about your system... Wish I could help you. You said it happened after "acans dies from a disease?" I am glad you keep to regular water changes, and wish I could help you further. but with so little information, you are asking a question that I could not possibly give you an answer to. You have set me up to fail with this question. Its like me asking you why is my Duck Toller barking right now. Could be a bird, could be the cat, could be that I'm paying attention to a thread that I've wasted too much time on today...

Furthermore, I believe you are not even currently battling cyano?

Again, I would like to go on record as not being against the chemiclean. I have used it as well. In fact I bet that I've purchased more than anyone else on the board (humorous). I just always find that the guys that are very strongly "anti water change" are often having tank crashes or issues that would likely have been solved with routine water changes.

I wish marko the best of luck in the future and who knows, perhaps he can develop a method of no-work reefkeeping that can put me out of a job?

[Cal_stir]

No I am not battling cyano right now, I won my battle with chemiclean and I was sharing my experience with Marco so he could make an informed decision about using chemiclean and or other maintenance to help in his battle with cyano, you are just throwing him under the bus for not doing routine water changes, I know people who don't do routine water changes and have successful reef tanks.

[pseudonym]

Originally Posted by Nate

I wish marko the best of luck in the future and who knows, perhaps he can develop a method of no-work reefkeeping that can put me out of a job?

It is called Monaco filtration.

Quick question here. When you say cyano "problem" could someone please define "problem" for me? I have had one patch appear, slightly larger than a loonie. Is that a "problem"? Should I be actually doing something about it or should I just adjust my regime slightly and see if I can cut it down or stop the spread? It is only in my DSB, no where else and I have pretty much zero nuisance algae anywhere in my tank (so little I find it annoying as i would LIKE to have a sea hair.. *sigh*)

I am pretty sure that the problem is that I am over feeding the tank (although I have it on what is called a calorie restricted diet, so I only "feed" every two days, but I think I have been over feeding to compensate). Going to try and reduce feeding a little bit and see how that does.

As for water changes... It really depends on what kind of system you are running and how loaded it is. There are major aquaria that do water changes "infrequently or never". The Dymico system is a very good example (I used to have an entire chart of major aquaria that don't do water changes, but I can't find the damn thing any more). These are world class systems that never do a water change. HOWEVER, if you aren't running a system designed for it, I would say you would be crazy not to do them. I think that quite a bit of religion has grown up out of water changes, and for a very good reason. If you don't know what is going on in your tank and aren't monitoring it constantly to see if you actually NEED to do a water change, then doing 10%/week will save you no end of problems, simply as a precaution.

I did a huge amount of research into this before starting. I probably spent as much time doing just research as most people take to get fish in their tank (several months of research). The first thing I learned is that there is absolutely no scientific consensus that exists in aquaria at all. Ask five different scientists and you will get five different answers. I have literally looked at research studies on the same subject that come to completely different conclusions, all done by creditable institutions. We don't know the long term effects of skimming, we do know that it increases hydrophobic bacteria counts to well above what you would find in nature. What does that mean.. hell if I know, and no one else does either!

In the end, we are all feeling around in the dark about a subject were there are little facts known and many rules of thumb. Hell, I don't even run a traditional Monaco setup as I use FAR less filtration than even Jaulbert does and instead rely on micro fauna populations to control organic removal. My system has characteristics of several "natural" systems. I use macro for nutrient export like in a Smithsonian Style Aquarium as described by Adey and Loveland. As well as use minimal forced filtration in order to keep as much live plankton in the water column as I can. I use a DSB and a plenum as found in Monaco and Dymico systems and lastly I use the 1lbs/gal rule for live rock in the display as commonly found in Berlin systems. If I could find one at a reasonable price I would be using a positive displacement pump as used in a true Smithsonian Style Aquarium so that I don't have fauna loss due to cavitation as the water is pumped from sump to display. All that means is that the pressure on my nutrients is always DOWN. It is actually a problem as if it gets too low, you risk your macro going sexual on you (to combat that you need to use 24/7 lighting in the fuge).

So.. will it work long term.. who the hell knows! It is working now, can't say everything is perfect, but I would expect that with any system I am running. I am not super advanced in the hobby, just do research in my job professionally so doing in depth functional studies are just.. well something I do and am quite good at. I still have so much practical knowledge to learn it isn't funny. That being said, I seem to have hit on a method that works without the overhead and maintenance. Other than adding in fresh water to combat evaporation, I have only needed to do one water change (due to my own incompetence) at this point from the time it was set up.

Figured I would put up a video. I think I ****ed off everyone in the city with my questions about skimmers and I figure it is time to show off a bit of what all the advice resulted in =). If you ask around Edmonton about "The monaco guy" that would be me =). I know it is small (until I get my 90 set up) and it isn't nearly as fancy as some of your guy's tanks (this is a LOW tech, getto experimental tank), but I am quite proud of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRTbZiGfllM&feature=plcp

[reefwars]

Originally Posted by pseudonym

We don't know the long term effects of skimming, we do know that it increases hydrophobic bacteria counts to well above what you would find in nature. What does that mean.. hell if I know, and no one else does either!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRTbZiGfllM&feature=plcp

what do you mean by this??


skimmings been around for a long time what would you call long term??

[pseudonym]

Hey Denny!

Thanks for the Zoas BTW.. LOVE them. =) Bring moar!! Are you coming to frag fest?

As for "long term".. running continuously for 10+ years on a system where we have actual research into the effects of skimming as compared to natural ocean reefs, with a control system and then repeating it several times in order to compare. I would say somewhere in the region of 50 - 75 years when added together and run concurrently over that 10 year period. IE: a rigorous scientific long term study of the effects of skimming. Something we don't have and it appears no one is currently doing. That *I* can find at any rate.

Advanced Aquarist published two detailed studies on skimmers. The first was to create a framework for evaluation, the second to actually do the evaluation. The results were surprising to say the least. Looking at the composition of skimmate is suggestive of a vast amount of micro fauna being removed along with organic compounds. Again, the research is very preliminary, we know next to nothing about the effects and while I can look at the composition to say "This is suggestive of" we don't actually KNOW what skimmers remove.

Bacterial counts are very interesting and a huge black hole in our knowledge. it is believed that it may be linked to coral spawning, or it may be linked to general health. We simply don't know. All we can do is compare it to natural systems and say that the count of hydrophobic bacteria is higher than in natural systems. We can't even say what kind of bacteria it is and can only describe general characteristics such a hydrophobic let alone say with any certainty what the long term effects are.

[pseudonym]

Just re-read the study on bacterial populations and protein skimmers. It is even worse than I stated. We can't even say with any certainty that hydrophobic bacteria levels are increased. The exact conclusion is that there is an evolutionary preasure that will almost certainly result in increased populations of hydrophobic bacteria. In the words of the study:

"Aquaria subjected to active filtration via skimming present water column bacteria populations that are approximately 1/10 of those observed on natural reefs. The consequences of this disparity on the long-term health of the tank's livestock are not known. How do reef tank organisms adapt to such a bacteria-deficient environment? Is the whole food web in an aquarium perturbed, or are there compensatory mechanisms that maintain an appropriate energy transduction through all of the trophic levels? Is "old tank syndrome" related to possible nutritional deficiencies stemming from this bacteria "gap"? Alternatively, could "old tank syndrome" be symptomatic of a gradual decrease of bacterial diversity as a consequence of selective skimmer-based removal of only bubble-susceptible bacteria? At present, it is not possible to go beyond speculation on these points - further research is needed."