Tang Police or Tang Nazis?

[Skimmerking]

Originally Posted by shrimpchips

In the article a study was cited in passing of measured cortisol levels being the same in acclimated stock as wild stock.

I love threads about an article where nobody reads the article. Read the article - I think it's pretty informative and lays a lot of issues out in a reasonable manner.

I'mall for appropriately sizing a tank to a fish - obviously a 7" fish should not go in a 12" cube. But a 6" fish in a 3' tank? Sure, it CAN swim really far and fast, but does it have to?

I think that the 7" fish in a 12" was a joke or mistaken somewhere. these always go that way.

[kien]

Actually, while this statement may sound ridiculous on the surface, I think you're absolutely right and is more or less what the article has found.

Originally Posted by Aquattro

I'd go so far as to say that unless your gallonage has 4 digits, the tang might as well be in a biocube.

[lastlight]

None of our tanks are suitable in my opinion. Most hobbyists feel better the more space they have. That much we know. We've grown comfortable with the six foot rule which is mostly for our peace of mind not theirs. Six is better than three but it's still a drop in the Big Bucket.

[JonT]

Originally Posted by gobytron

None of this makes you any less of a detriment to the state of the oceans.

Yes it does. People are taking care of animals better through research. They are breeding animals that 10 years ago we couldn't (wanna get a tank raised mandarin, that will eat prepared food, you can. Couldn't a couple years ago)

Originally Posted by gobytron

You can say I am better than the rest because I do my research and cross my t's and dot my i's but it doesnt change a thing anywhere but in your own eyes.
You are still taking these animals out of their home and putting them into yours for YOUR OWN PERSONAL BENEFIT.

Sure I am, but in my tank, I have setup the tank to keep my fish healthy. I would bet your tanks are setup in the best interests of the inhabitants your looking to put in there.

Originally Posted by gobytron

And as far as the eco rock goes, I thought I was pretty clear in speaking only in the context of being guilty of the rape of our oceans....lol
not of other forms of environmental destruction.
Speculation is fun and it can sure help you make a point but really, you would need a pretty in depth study to truly determine which was more harmfull overall to the general environment.

And I was pointing out that sometimes this "rape" of the ocean is a better solution than the Eco friendly ways. I did a quick look, and all the eco rock sellers I could find state; We dig this rock from X year old reefs. (pollutants, land erosion etc) Then power wash the rock (where is all that silt running too?) to sell it as 100% clean rock.

Originally Posted by gobytron

Also....lol
as a side note, both my German Short Haired Pointer and my Chihuahua are crate trained and are healthier, happier animals for it and nobody is going to send me to jail for that.

Again, ya missed what I was saying. If you leave those dogs in their crate 24/7 you can bet your butt you can be in trouble for it. But I am guessing they are in there while you work, maybe at night too. Nothing wrong with that. We don't have the option of taking the fish for a walk, or letting it out in the back yard. So, we try to give it the best we can.



If not for the hobby in the first place, some of the learning that has happened in the past few years would not exist. Talk to any of the industry (hobby?) leaders at any of the shows. They will all talk about how the hobby has helped with the industry, and renewal projects on the reefs.

Now, please, if you have something to debate, or add to a conversation, do so. Don't sit here and nit pick one persons thoughts and opinions. That sort of thinking is not healthy.

[reefwars]

Originally Posted by Aquattro

So while I may admire the intent to do well, believing we are is simply fiction. Reality is, we are a menace to the reefs!

couldnt agree more theres too much about whats right and whats wrong, we all use the judgement that suits us best if someone elses beliefs or practises are different then our own then thats their god given right but why should we argue over things that will never have a solid answer......whos right and whos wrong is always gonna be up for debate so i say choose your side based on your own feelings.

i got into sw for the hobby of it, so as a hobbyst and not a conservationalist i dont quabble over right and wrong i just wait for opportunities to come my way so while you all are arguing ill stand neutral...... this hobby to me is an experiment im not trying to save the world im trying to save my sanity and keep myself busy if i save the reef in the process then great if i am somehow to blame for destroying it then....sorry in advance


i think the reason we all dont have big fish in super small tanks isnt because we feel morally at fault if that was the case id offer money to every bum i seen we dont do it because they dont fit, if i had a 3' tank and a 9" fish then he takes up the whole tank and would leave little room for viewing which is the whole idea of a aquarium.

[Aquattro]

I'll reiterate again, if you keep fish in a tank, you're a hazard to the oceans Equating dogs and crates isn't entirely accurate. Tank/fish size is like comparing taking a wild wolf and keeping in the extra large size crate instead of the undersized medium crate. The furrari Xtra large is a wonderful crate, but the wolf isn't any better off than if it was in the undersized crate. The wolf belongs in the forest. The fish belong in the ocean.
We don't need to "research" reefs in aquariums. How many millions of fish have died, tons of rocks mined, corals ripped from the wild, all in the name of this research??
Sure, we all have our excuses for why we keep them anyway, but it's still bad for everything but us.

[globaldesigns]

Originally Posted by Aquattro

I'll reiterate again, if you keep fish in a tank, you're a hazard to the oceans Equating dogs and crates isn't entirely accurate. Tank/fish size is like comparing taking a wild wolf and keeping in the extra large size crate instead of the undersized medium crate. The furrari Xtra large is a wonderful crate, but the wolf isn't any better off than if it was in the undersized crate. The wolf belongs in the forest. The fish belong in the ocean.
We don't need to "research" reefs in aquariums. How many millions of fish have died, tons of rocks mined, corals ripped from the wild, all in the name of this research??
Sure, we all have our excuses for why we keep them anyway, but it's still bad for everything but us.

As I stated prior, and +1 to you. We are ALL Selfish, but again this is human.

We can go on this topic forever, but overall the human race are the pilligers of the planet, we take, and don't replace. We take for pleasure, not just for survival... Name another creature that is like this, NONE!!!

I agree with Gobytrons and others comments also... I guess it is just a matter how we present/represent ourselves. This the reason I commented prior to your comments.

Really do we have a right to scrutinize anyone for having too small a tank, when in reality none of us should have one?

[gobytron]

Originally Posted by JonT

Yes it does. People are taking care of animals better through research. They are breeding animals that 10 years ago we couldn't (wanna get a tank raised mandarin, that will eat prepared food, you can. Couldn't a couple years ago)



Sure I am, but in my tank, I have setup the tank to keep my fish healthy. I would bet your tanks are setup in the best interests of the inhabitants your looking to put in there.


And I was pointing out that sometimes this "rape" of the ocean is a better solution than the Eco friendly ways. I did a quick look, and all the eco rock sellers I could find state; We dig this rock from X year old reefs. (pollutants, land erosion etc) Then power wash the rock (where is all that silt running too?) to sell it as 100% clean rock.


Again, ya missed what I was saying. If you leave those dogs in their crate 24/7 you can bet your butt you can be in trouble for it. But I am guessing they are in there while you work, maybe at night too. Nothing wrong with that. We don't have the option of taking the fish for a walk, or letting it out in the back yard. So, we try to give it the best we can.



If not for the hobby in the first place, some of the learning that has happened in the past few years would not exist. Talk to any of the industry (hobby?) leaders at any of the shows. They will all talk about how the hobby has helped with the industry, and renewal projects on the reefs.

Now, please, if you have something to debate, or add to a conversation, do so. Don't sit here and nit pick one persons thoughts and opinions. That sort of thinking is not healthy.

LOL...
It's like we're having 2 different conversations...

[daniella3d]

I had read it yesterday and that come right on time. I happen to have a small hippo, 2" 1/2 in a 75 gallons tank and was told the fish "would not be happy". He eats like a pig but does not roam the aquarium much and prefer to stay on the top part within my sps. I was again told it is because the fish is in a too small space and that was a sign of stress but after reading the article I have learned the truth...the young hippo tang does not roam much and prefer to stay within the same spot, so my fish has a normal behavior as it would in the wild. He can stay in that tank for a year at least before he outgrown it, then he would go into a larger tank but there is no rush.

It is true that taking a fish from the ocean with a living space of 20,000 gallon per fish and putting it either in a 90 galons tank or a 150 gallons tank is not going to make a big difference.

they also explain that the naso tang and one other are those that really need swimming space so there is a lot of myth and propaganda done by the unfamous tang police it seems.

For the stress level, I always thought that fish were more stressed in the wild because they constantly have to watch for predator and death is in every corners. In aquarium usualy the fish are well fed and safe. How stressfull can that be? at least if there is no aggression in the tank that is.

Originally Posted by Lance

Interesting article in this month's Coral Magazine: It seems the "Tang Police" may have to hand in their handcuffs. Apparently, studies have been done to measure stress levels of fish kept in aquariums of different sizes. After acclimation, there was no difference is stress level between fishes in larger or smaller tanks. In fact, there was no difference in levels between captive fish and wild fish. The author of the article goes on to say that the Regal Tang, which many people consider to be one of the Tangs that require larger spaces are fine in a tank of 150 gallons, as long as a swimming area of 65" by 24" is available. The author also says Wrasses may require more swimming room than Tangs. Why are there no "Wrasse Police"?

[Aquattro]

Originally Posted by daniella3d

For the stress level, I always thought that fish were more stressed in the wild because they constantly have to watch for predator and death is in every corners. In aquarium usualy the fish are well fed and safe. How stressfull can that be? at least if there is no aggression in the tank that is.

I don't think the fish know that there aren't any sharks behind the rock, so the normal stress of trying to avoid being eaten is still there.