Swine Flu/H1N1 Vaccination - Yes or No?

[pinhead]

Originally Posted by GreenSpottedPuffer

something like a drug company releasing a virus to cash in on the meds and vaccinations, hand sanitizers, ect. is NOT that out there...I don't believe that this time but how is that not possible?

Not impossible but not very likely.

Occam's razor - entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem

interpreted as: the simplest hypothesis is more likely to be the true than are any others

[FitoPharmer]

Originally Posted by pinhead

Not impossible but not very likely.

Occam's razor - entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem

interpreted as: the simplest hypothesis is more likely to be the true than are any others

made up of genetic elements from four different flu viruses – North American swine influenza, North American avian influenza, human influenza, and swine influenza virus typically found in Asia and Europe – "an unusually mongrelised mix of genetic sequences."

whats the simplest hypothesis for four different viruses combining to make our h1n1 of today? a Mexican fertilizer pile baking in the sun or a laboratory?

[Myka]

After talking to my mom who is a nurse in a doctor's office, she has convinced me to get the vaccine.

She told me that the regular yearly flu shot has contained a very similar H1N1 virus of a weaker strain for several years. This "new" H1N1 isn't anything new at all, it's just a particularly strong strain we are seeing now. Old people aren't getting sick and dying from it because they have likely all been exposed to it many years ago, it's us young'uns that don't have any antibodies against it yet, so it being particularly strong it's kicking out butts.

My mom also said that the adjuvant that everyone is so worried about is not normally used in Canada, but has been used for "hundreds of years" overseas in Europe. She says that the clinic she works in has given several hundred H1N1 vaccines already, and they haven't had any reports of anyone getting any more sick than the usual flu shot (may make you). It's the adjuvant that makes your arm sore though, but it is supposedly no worse than a Tetanus shot.

Anyway...I changed my mind. I'm going to get mine. I have asthma, so I will be able to get mine on Monday.

[pinhead]

Originally Posted by FitoPharmer

that's fine, i just want to know what science? what specific piece or pieces of science makes your decision based on evidence? all i have been asking all along is i would like to see this science. so far what i have seen makes me believe the swine flu shot is not worth the associated risks considering the meager benefit. and until i see proof that says other wise my mind wont be changed, i'm sorry.

Unfortunately, the evidence I could provide is from scientific journals based on research that is often funded by the government or by industry who are all part of the conspiracy.

Skepticism is fine and an open mind is a neccesary skill in a scientist. Sometimes a new discovery goes very much against our current thinking.

Science does not have all the answers. New experiments or new technology sometimes results in a completely different way of thinking of things.

However, any results must be repeatable and falsifiable.

Vaccine caused you to grow an extra big toe? Show that can happen again and again - except this time under controlled conditions so we know it was the vaccine and not something else. No evidence the vaccine causes you to grow an extra toe? Accepted until there are studies that would indicate something to the contrary.

To true believers, evidence not supporting their ideas is minimalized. They attack the evidence presented rather than providing evidence of their own.

So if you do not accept all the evidence presented to you - what evidence do you have? (and no more youtube or wikipedia)

And Occam's Razor was used to illustrate that between the theory that the pharmaceutical companies engineered H1N1 and released it to increase profits or that it is a naturally occuring pandemic - the former is not very likely.

[FitoPharmer]

Originally Posted by pinhead

Unfortunately, the evidence I could provide is from scientific journals based on research that is often funded by the government or by industry who are all part of the conspiracy.

what book/journal? published by who? i dont mind going to the library or the internet to find out. i really don't care who it comes from. i'm only making my choice based on the FACTS SHEET i have gotten from the MAKER of the vaccine.

Originally Posted by pinhead

Skepticism is fine and an open mind is a neccesary skill in a scientist. Sometimes a new discovery goes very much against our current thinking.

"Dissent is the truest form of patriotism"

Originally Posted by pinhead

Science does not have all the answers. New experiments or new technology sometimes results in a completely different way of thinking of things.

However, any results must be repeatable and falsifiable.

they sure don't, and yes it usually takes someone thinking out side the current theories to invent or discover something new or innovative. i would just like to see more science and studies, and i don't mind looking for them if i'm told where or what to look for. but i didnt have to look any farther then GSK's own product fact sheet on the vaccine to see the associated risks were not worth the stated benefits .

Originally Posted by pinhead

Vaccine caused you to grow an extra big toe? Show that can happen again and again - except this time under controlled conditions so we know it was the vaccine and not something else. No evidence the vaccine causes you to grow an extra toe? Accepted until there are studies that would indicate something to the contrary.

To true believers, evidence not supporting their ideas is minimalized. They attack the evidence presented rather than providing evidence of their own.

HISTORY LESSON TIME!!!!
first off look up, Monstanto.
then look up, PCB's.
then look up, Anniston, Alabama.
lets wait and see what the government deems safe for us next!!!!!

Originally Posted by pinhead

So if you do not accept all the evidence presented to you - what evidence do you have? (and no more youtube or wikipedia)

seriously now, stop toll'n it up bro. why do you constantly wish to avoid my questions about what problems you have with the side effect portion of GSK's own product fact sheet for the vaccine?

****please note:****
GSK's site is NOT i repeat, NOT youtube or wikipedia
GSK's product information site is NOT i repeat, NOT youtube or wikipedia

Originally Posted by pinhead

And Occam's Razor was used to illustrate that between the theory that the pharmaceutical companies engineered H1N1 and released it to increase profits or that it is a naturally occuring pandemic - the former is not very likely.

what makes you say that? i would just like to know your qualifications on understanding microbiological mutations.

[RuGlu6]

I second wholeheartedly what FitoPharmer is saying.

To the history lessons i would add aspartame which is "safe" according to officials but actually turns in to formalin at body temperatures. just look up what it DOES to the human body!

It is crime, what corporations are doing to us and it is time to wake up !

The mane question is who benefits financially who is the stake holder? Yes its free in Canada so that means taxpayers, WE HAVE to pay.
Mr D. Cheiney is the main guy who invested in these vaccines, so who in the right mind would inject toxic chemicals and half dead virus in to a blood stream, bypassing all natual body means of fighting the virus ? and hope it would boost immunity ? what a joke!
All it does is creates a venue for making money thats all, if that is so hard to get in to someones head then go ahead and inject yourself and your poor kids with this H1N1 tomorrow you will get H2N2 and then H3N3.

tell to get ONE more vaccine to a parent of autistic child and listen to what they will tell you.

[Ron99]

I'm pretty much at the point that I really don't see the value of contributing here any longer. People are going to believe what they want. You either trust in science and actual experimental evidence or you don't. I guess that's the end of the story and as much as I could wish that everybody was rational and had the knowledge and education to understand these things like I do that's just not reality. Read the entire fact sheet and look at the results of the trials with the vaccine. Nobody had any severe reactions to this vaccine in all their trials. The few people who did become sick or die were determined to have been from other condition such as diabetes or heart attacks etc. unrelated to the vaccine. That list of side effects you are focussing on is because of lawyers wanting to cover the company in the rare chance something like that does happen. Have a look at any vaccine or drug and you will see similar lists of potential side effects. But the odds of them occurring are extremely low. Are they impossible? No. If millions of doses are administered will there be 100% of people with no serious reactions? Probably not. But I am pretty much 100% certain that the incidence of severe reactions will be a few per million doses. That may be little comfort to you if you are one of those few in a million but I would rather be protected then at much higher risk of getting H1N1 because I'm afraid of some unlikely adverse reaction. If I thought like that I would be afraid to leave the house because there is a very slight, however unlikely, chance I will be run over crossing the street.

To those who think "natural"products are safer then drugs and vaccines I think you need to really do more research. The majority of our drugs came from natural sources but we can administer them in pure forms and controlled dosages based on clinical trials in thousands of people. Natural products do not have such controls or restrictions yet. And I could tell you stories such as a weight loss tea from China somebody was wanting to import to the U.S. Turned out it was laced with synthetic amphetamines which acted as an appetite suppressant.

Also, so called "organic" products can actually be more toxic to you then things grown at conventional farms. Mother nature has devised many natural toxins far more potent and harmful then anything we can come up with which are often found in higher concentrations in organic foods.

Anyhow, if anybody wants to discuss any of the science behind the H1N1 virus or vaccines etc. I'll be happy to try to answer what questions I can. The rest of the debate is a bit pointless to me.

Oh, and about aspartame. Don't get me started on that stupid debate. The amount of formalin generated by the metabolism of aspartame is no more then would be generated eating any other proteins because that is just what aspartame is. It is two amino acids linked together that happen to taste sweet. You would have to eat something like 30 pounds of pure aspartame to reach toxic levels of formalin. Again, this is people freaking out because they see that aspartame is broken down into formalin. Oh my god! But nobody asks how much and how that is detoxified in your body etc. You need to dig deeper into things before coming to conclusions. Aspartame IS completely safe in any amounts that anyone will reasonably consume.

Now look...you've got me started again...