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Blue Hippo - Ich - Treating with copper
I have a Hippo Tang in a 15 gallon (It is a juvenile) and am treating it with copper. (It had ich).
Since I setup the tank a week ago ammonia is now going up. (**is a hospital tank.. NOT a DT!**) How should I handle the water changes and re-dose the copper? I think I'm about .25ppm for ammonia. Should I just measure the amount I'm taking out and then re-dose? I do have a copper test kit but I know that it is sometimes difficult to calculate dosage of the copper using a test kit. Maybe test 1st to get a baseline? Anyone with experience? Thanks |
What test kit are you using? What copper treatment are you using?
If you are using Cupramine or any other amine copper treatment and using a Nessler style test kit (Salifert, Elos, etc) you will get a false ammonia reading because those test kits can't differentiate between ammonia and the amine used in Cupramine. If you use a salicylate style test kit (API, SeaChem, etc) you will get an accurate ammonia reading provided you read the test when you are supposed to, of you let it sit too long it will read like the Nessler kit. If you do indeed have ammonia present that will harm the fish, you can use Prime with Cupramine, but you have to be very careful to not overdose Prime because it will make the copper 10x more toxic by changing the Cu2+ ions to Cu+. |
You might want to rethink this and do a hyposalinity instead and put some liverock in there. I am doing it with a hippo with ich and my liverock bacterias survived the hyposalinity and I have zero problem with ammonia.
I keep my salinity between 1.010 to 1.009 and he's been in there with a clownfish in a 20 gallons for 3 weeks and no more sign of ich. One more week to go and I slow raise the salinity back to 1.024 over the course of 7 days and voila. I did this because I did not want to have to deal with ammonia rising all the time and loads of water change. Plus with hyposalinity it is easy to do water change since it only require a little bit of salt to reach 1.009. But if you would change the treatment and go to hyposalinity then you would have to change all the water because you cannot combine hypo with copper, it woudl be toxic. You would also have to adjust the fish to the new salinity over a few days. It is easier on the fish to lower the salinity than to raise it, so dropping it can be done in one day but raising it must be done slowly like 0.002 per day. A refractometer is necessary because this need accuracy that a hygrometer cannot provide. Quote:
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So you put the hippo... in a brand new 15 gallon tank????
Why would you put any fish... let alone a HIppo Tang into an uncycled tank???? |
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That's why you see the ammonia spike and stay on top of your water changes!!! |
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Use water from an established reef tank for water changes if you can as it will be gentler on the fish. Don't forget to replace the Cupramine you removed, but only in the number of gallons you removed.
I would have suggested hyposalinity too as I am not a fan of copper treatments at all, but the OP has already started copper treatment. |
Are you saying that because copper treatment was stated then it's too late or pointless to change to hyposalinity?
Does that mean that now that the fish is bating in copper, it won't do more dammage if the fish remains longer in that copper? Quote:
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If this is your new/regular tank, then a big NO NO.... Too small of a tank and too new for any type of fish. Good Luck! |
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I know my tank has Ich in it, and probably always has (to some degree...). But by keeping my fish healthy with a balanced diet and dosing Garlic and Selcon into the food daily, it ensures anything that does appear clears up within a day or so. I guess the UV also helps too. |
Hi all, Thanks for the tips.
I guess I should have provided some information. 1) Bought the fish about 1.5 weeks ago from a LFS. 2) Acclimated him directly into my 90 Gallon DT.. Then it showed ich the next day (no worries.. drip acclimated over 2 hours with the temperature in check. (and YES I do know that I now have ich in my DT but it hasn't attacked my other fish ever... they must be happy) 3) Pulled him out and setup a hospital tank. Bare bottom with some PVC elbows and tees to make him feel comfortable. I've been doing WCs with old tank water from my 90 but now I started treating with copper. I know that feeding well, clean water, etc...etc.. is best. That is what is going on in my DT. This is just a new fish from a LFS that must have been quite stressed by the move. Once I start doing WCs I guess I have to check the copper level. I am not using an amine treatment. Just regular copper. I am using an API copper test kit and ammonia kit. He currently is eating well. I've actually had saltwater fish for almost 2 years (after moving from fresh water for over 10 years) and this is my first Saltwater Disease! Someone's question about going hypo with copper.. from my research (taken with a grain of salt.. ) that going hypo with copper will increase the potency of the copper on the fish so is not recommended. It does make sense to me. Thanks everyone |
i just finished treating my sick tank with cupramine for ich - had lost two fish so pretty serious, i was doing 50% water changes (not with my tank water, that was infected) 2-3x per week and was dosing the new water and my top up water with cupramine to recommended levels - i did this by working back the ratios to the volume being used from the recommended amounts on the bottle and checked with a seachem copper test kit, i treated for the recommended time then kept the fish out of the display for 8 weeks total , no ich has returned two months later
thats what worked for me. |
Scherzo you seem to be on top of things. Good luck with the treatment.
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I guess this is what I'll have to do as well... I'll do a WC tonight and then calculate how much I took out and add copper back as per the amount of new water... phew.. I have a bit of work ahead of me. |
but there is no point treating your hippo for ich if it is in the main tank because as soon as you will put it back in the DT he will get ich againg. So basically you are treating him with copper for nothing.
Your other fish may not show sign but the ich is in your tank now and your other fish will be carrier. As soon as you will put the hippo back and he will be stressed, he'll get that ich back and back to square 1. You cannot use copper with hyposalinity yes, but I just think there is no point submitting that fish to copper only to have it reinfest with ich very soon. So in order to get rid of ich, you must treat all of your fish outside the display tank and leave the display tank fishless for 8 weeks. Quote:
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Glad to hear that you aren't keeping a tang in a 15 Gallon. I didn't think that was the case.
Again, personally I don't believe in hospital tanks. The stress of catching them, the stress of putting them in a new environment, usually much smaller and not of the same water quality usually would stress them out more. Again, just my opinion, but why do that. I have had ICH, and I have only ever lost one fish to it in my big tank. I find if your environment is spot on, and you keep your parameters good, just let them be and feed them a good varied diet. This also goes for HYPO, I don't believe in it. Now in saying that, I have great success with fish... I can't say much lately for my coral though. Oh Well. |
Honestly, I really think the same thing. I know that FW and SW are two different things... but when I had similar issues in FW I would just do a few small things and just make the fishes feel comfortable.
I've put the tank in a low traffic area and keep the lights low and for a shorter photo period. He's only about 1.5" - 2" long so I don't think the 15 is bothering him quite yet. He is still eating and swimming quite actively so I'll just continue to monitor. I was talking to a fellow reefer a few days ago at work and we were saying that everyone has their own methods of dealing with these types of issues. Quote:
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Personally, I don't treat Ich. I do treat all incoming fish with PraziPro for worms though.
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You might want to consider soaking all food you feed in garlic extract using selcon as welll from time to time. The tang you bought will get to be the size of a pie plate. Your 4 foot tank is too small for this tang. Despite reefers best intentions to move up to a larger tank as the tang grows, the reality is divorce, marriage, kids, unemployment or a move change things and the tangs suffer. |
I don't want to be argumentative, but am I the only one who think that treating a fish with copper for ich only to reintroduce it right back to a ich contaminated tank make ne sense what so ever??
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But in that case copper would not be the choice. A formalin dip would be best IME and the fish would go back to the main tank for the garlic extract treatment. |
I will soak food from time to time.
The 90 is an in wall with framing already going in for a six foot fowlr (also in wall) that will share the 75 gallon sump that is already running under it. I hope I don't get divorced... 14 years of marriage.. and I love my wife more than the first day I met her.. kids.. love 'em already... A move is something to consider... but if we always consider a move.. we'll never setup a tank then would we? I do appreciate your thoughts.. Quote:
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i have the same thought that if your fish are healthy and your tank is healthy then ich wont be a problem in most cases, i know a few people who battled bad bouts of it only to end up with healthy systems without having them fishless for weeks on end. it all comes down to this any new arrival never hits your tank... all fish are quarantined even if for a short time is all one can do, it goes to show that if you only ever introduce healthy fish to your system then your systenm will be healthy...if you do introduce a fish into your tank who didnt show signs but do now that doesnt mean the rest of your fish will get it , fish that are healthy swimmers with good appetites and strong immune systems can fight it off or are barely affected. |
** All treatments are up to the individual (Disclaimer).
I don't think that a hospital tank in this situation is a bad idea. I have had my dealings with ich and I still wake up at night with the sweats occasionally thinking about it. I agree that once a tank gets established ich becomes less of an issue but you sometimes have to give a new fish a fighting chance. Considering what the fish probably went through to get from the ocean to your tank a few weeks recouping in a hospital tank might be what the doctor ordered. If the fish gets introduced and is too small or to sick to compete with the other fish their chances decrease. By treating the fish and nursing them back to health maybe they will have a strong immune system next time they go back into the display and can fight it off this time. Even removing all fish and treating while the DT remains fallow for 6 weeks or so is not always effective. There are some strains of ich that can live without a host for considerably longer. I often wondered if the fish can sense my stress over these situations and react accordingly. I added a Powder Blue a few months ago and the other tangs cut it up like swiss cheese. Of course he developed some ich and I thought his days were numbered. For once I didn't stress about it and he healed up and is doing fine now. Anyway good luck and keep us posted......Just keep swimming. |
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Nope, mine does not have ich in it and I don't want ich in it.
That's a myth that every tank has ich. Ich is a parasite and it does not have to be in a tank and on a fish. It weaken the fish and although you don't see the white dots maybe, a certain amount of parasites can still be on the gill and weaken the fish if it become stressed and create an outbreak. Tank must be fallow for 8 weeks. Fish can still be carrying ich without showing sign so yes an hyposalinity is not 100% garantee to get rid of it but it is much more sure than not doing quarantine, especialy if you have an ich magnet like a hippo tang. Make no mistake, people do lose fish from ich and something many fish. Quote:
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Fish can/will carry the parasite in their gills "forever" unless you have TREATED every fish in a QT before adding them to your tank you will most likely have Ich in there. Simply quarantining the fish won't guarantee there is no Ich present, it has to be treated. 30% of the fish in the world's reefs are infected with Ich either in their gills or on their body, and it only makes sense that a much larger percentage would be infected in dealers' tanks. If Ich is showing on the body the fish is already severely infected. Quote:
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Sure, that's why I do hyposalinity no matter if the fish show sign of ich or not, as to get rid of what ever gill parasites the fish might be hiding.
Keeping a fish in quarantine with normal salinity is only good to see if the fish does not have something nasty as velvet or turn out with some other diseases. I am well aware that it may still have ich and not show it. As for my fish in QT now, I am putting them in my display tomorrow, QT over. So far so good, no sign if ich while raising the salinity so I will see tomorrow and in the next few days. At least I am 100% sure they don't have velvet because they have been in QT for 6 weeks now. Quote:
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They need to be in full hyposalinity for 8 weeks to "guarantee" no Ich left. You should know that. ;) By "full hyposalinity" I mean not including the days it takes to get to hypo or the days it takes to get back to normal salinity.
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8 weeks? that's a bit extreme :) I did 6 weeks, hope it's enough.
When I raised the salinity, to help prevent any return of ich, I also treated with Paragard. Quote:
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I had ich in my tank too, I think it came in with one of my tangs, anyway my vlamingi and regal tang both got it. My response was to buy a few more cleaner shrimp and use garlic. The regal tang would actually hang out by the shrimp and over a couple of weeks it disappeared. I don't like copper and thanks to the shrimp didn't have to try hyposalinity.
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Just to make sure if there was any surviving kist, the larvaes would die if they ever got out of it while I was raising the salinity, so that they would not attach to the fish.
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Well he's in the display for 2 days and no sign of ich yet. I don't know how long I should wait until I know for sure ich is gone? I could not do longer hypo treatment because I am returning to work and won't have time to monitor all this.
prazi might be more important one some fish but if a fish is dying of ich, prazi won't do any good. Quote:
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I have never had a saltwater fish die from Ich, but I have had several die from worms. I dissect all dead fish. Sometimes I can tell what happened, sometimes I can't. A kid's microscope comes in handy. EDIT: I don't think you actually said what kind of fish you were quarantining...? |
Same as in this threat, the little ich magnet hippo tang and one clown fish.
The hippo has great appetite and I am feeding him garlic soaked food right now. He's been in the DT for 3 days and no ich. I guess if he's still ok in about a week I can assume he'll be ok unless I introduce something bad. You never had a fish died from ich but I have read of many fish dying from this parasite. It can be quite serious sometimes. Quote:
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Well, hopefully it works for you.
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