100% Certified Cyanide Free Reef Fish for Sale.

[awa1979]

I would rather see less species available and have those species humanly caught and with as little environmental damage as possible, then have a huge selection that were caught in questionable ways.

If we stop buying fish that don't belong in captivity, eventually the demand will fall and collection will ease.

If the hobby doesn't police itself, the politicians will eventually and well we know what happens when politicians become involved with things.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Originally Posted by awa1979

I would rather see less species available and have those species humanly caught and with as little environmental damage as possible, then have a huge selection that were caught in questionable ways.

If we stop buying fish that don't belong in captivity, eventually the demand will fall and collection will ease.

If the hobby doesn't police itself, the politicians will eventually and well we know what happens when politicians become involved with things.

I think that is kind of the way its going...

I also think it will just simply end up being a matter of many fish going onto the endangered species list before the collection of them stops. May not be in my lifetime but it clearly will happen. Between overfishing, pollution, climate change and collecting, the ocean is declining fast.

The way things are now for this hobby, its not sustainable.

[midgetwaiter]

Originally Posted by GreenSpottedPuffer

I would assume he distributes them throughout Canada but I have yet to find a retailer here in town that does buy MAC certified fish I am guessing they cost a bit more and most LFS are not willing/caring enough to spend the money. I would love to be able to walk into the shops and see MAC certified tanks. I can understand not devoting an entire store to them but a few tanks would be nice.

Heres an interesting question then...

Forget price for now. If you had the choice to buy MAC fish (humanely caught with certification) but had to limit the species you kept OR buy any species usually available but were taking a chance the fish may be inhumanely caught, which would you buy?

I've brought in lots of MAC certified fish over the years working in different shops. I've seen lists from the wholesaler you guys are talking about, they don't usually cost a lot more but there isn't a very large selection of species. I've marked the fish I've brought in as MAC certified, nobody seemed to care. I tend to agree as I didn't see much of a difference in quality.

Once you look into it further MAC is pretty much a joke anyway. They sure spent a lot of money but they haven't accomplished much more than distributing paperwork.

[ProReef]

We buy all of our fish exclusively from a MAC certified wholesaler. And yes, there is a huge price difference between transhipped fish and our particular wholesaler. We make very little on fish because we are competing with stores that buy from transships, but we are extremely satisfied with the quality.

I'm planning on starting a thread regarding our fish supplier, the quality, my experience in the industry, and our acclimation methods when we've gathered more detailed information. But in the meantime, here's some email correspondance between us and our supplier that you may find interesting:

From: Sales@ProgressiveReef.com [mailto:sales@progressivereef.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 11:30 AM
To: Eric
Subject: fish quality



Hey Eric,



I'd like some information to tell to my customers regarding the quality of our fish. Could you think me up some nice things to say about you guys?


-------------------------------------------------

From: Eric
To: Sales@ProgressiveReef.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 12:35 PM
Subject: RE: fish quality



Happy to



You can start by saying that our fish are acclimated using the best electronic controlled ph system available. We also medicate and quarantine our fish during the acclimation process. Then, we aggressively feed our fish the day after arrival and on a day-to-day basis using our own live brine shrimp that is hatched and enriched right here at SDC.



We also feed daily, a plethora of foods all targeting each specific specie to ensure the healthiest quality of fish possible.



How’s that?



Eric


---------------------------------

From: Sales@ProgressiveReef.com [mailto:sales@progressivereef.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 12:43 PM
To: Eric
Subject: Re: fish quality



That's good, but details are better. What separates you from other wholesalers? How confident are you that your collectors aren't using cyanide? I noticed some markings on your boxes that I thought indicated you guys were concerned with sustainable collection practices...etc. Give me your best sales pitch, as much info as possible.


----------------------------


Well….those things I mentioned ARE what separate us from the other wholesalers. The other wholesalers don’t raise their own foods, or feed the fish like we do. They don’t acclimate their fish and quarantine them like we do. We are Mac Certified…not sure that means much….but most other wholesalers are not.



We can’t guarantee that our fish are not collected from the philipines or bali without drugs, but we can tell you that we use only the best suppliers that consistently ship fish to us with less than 5% mortality. We have visited our suppliers (others don’t do that) to make sure their facilities are clean and disease free….



We have participated in a three year study with Oregon State University and did a thorough study on shipping diseases, when no other company was interested. We sampled hundreds of fish during the study, and then traveled to Bali with the scientists from the University to further and complete the study.



Anything else specific you can think of?



Eric

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

^^^Great to hear! Thats what Im talking about!

I like how honest he sounds. Not going to make guarantees that he he can't keep (cyanide) but this is exactly the kind of attitude I wish other wholesalers would have. No the situation would still not be perfect but its a step in the right direction. If its not done, this hobby will disappear one day. Its not sustainable how things are now (which is not just the fault of the hobby though by any means...there are much worse issues in our oceans right now).

I understand in the end its a business. My fiance is starting up a cosmetics line, so we know all about trying to make a profit and keeping costs down. BUT we are not talking about inanimate objects here...these are living creatures, not eye shadows or DVD's. You can't approach this kind of business the same.

IMO if you cannot take the time to make sure you do all you can to ensure the well being of the fish that are being sold, you should find a new career. There are plenty of business opportunities out there where you don't have to care about your product and can make more money than you would selling fish!

I applaude this wholesaler and Progressive Reef for using them! Certainly is progressive, IMO

[Aquatic Addictions]

I can say first hand that at a bare minimum I know 3 of my suppliers do NOT use chemicals in their process of fish collection or storing. I do not order from one until I have made the journey to see first hand and meet them face to face spending minumum7-10 days there watching everything. I can say this first hand as I have been to see three of them personally in their respective countries.
Finding a good supplier is hard specially when you see things in these locations you would see no where else in the world. The only way to "ensure" your collection practices/packing/keeping of these fish is to see it first hand.

As for "certified" it is simply a money grab situation as there is no policing the standards they ask for or require for MAC certification . It is nice as a thought of what it could be if carried out properly....but no one would be able to afford the livestock anymore with the extra costs associated with governing the industry to those standards and keeping people honest.

Just my opinion though.

Dan

[BlueAbyss]

Originally Posted by GreenSpottedPuffer

I think that is kind of the way its going...

I also think it will just simply end up being a matter of many fish going onto the endangered species list before the collection of them stops. May not be in my lifetime but it clearly will happen. Between overfishing, pollution, climate change and collecting, the ocean is declining fast.

The way things are now for this hobby, its not sustainable.

Just a note about sustainability...

You honestly think it is aquarists that are destroying the ocean? Ever watched a shrimp boat sweep the sea clean, only to pick a couple shrimps out of the mess of sealife that ends up on the deck of the boat, and shovel all the dead and dying sealife back into the ocean? Few (if any) of the fish that sit up in the sun while they pick through the mess for the shrimp survive...

Look at how destructive fishing for orange roughy is... I mean really, orange roughy is expensive because there are so few left. Like the cod fishery on Canada's east coast, it was just not sustainable, but that doesn't stop people from eating shrimp, cod, orange roughy...

Me buying a pair of wild-caught fish probably did less damage than me eating 5 shrimp at a restaurant, in all reality. But that's just my $.02, others will undoubtedly see this differently. I just watched a TV show about shrimping the other day, and was so unimpressed with the like 5 shrimp that came out of a full net of ocean animals that I'll likely only eat shrimp on special occasions, and will likely never buy them again.

Unless I'm serving them with beluga caviar and a big bucket of sea turtle eggs.

[Snaz]

I started this poll and expected to see 90%+ in favour of buying the "certified cyanide free" option. I was surprised by the 60/40 split and some of the responses.

[justinl]

Originally Posted by BlueAbyss

I just watched a TV show about shrimping the other day, and was so unimpressed with the like 5 shrimp that came out of a full net of ocean animals that I'll likely only eat shrimp on special occasions, and will likely never buy them again.

It just depends which shrimp you eat. Never eat tiger prawns, for example, for the same reasons you stated. But take a gander over to Granville island market and you'll find FRESH trapped prawns. prawn traps are just like crab traps and are 100% sustainable in my mind. plus spot prawns taste 10X better than stinkin asian tiger prawns. Canadian fisheries has a lot of screw ups to fix and answer for, but not all of it is doom and gloom (just most of it :P)

my current favorite picture out of "nature". this sort of sums up shrimp trawling for me. it's a satellite image of an asian shrimp trawling fleet and the sediment they kick up (which then settles and chokes out any and all sessile life).


snaz, im not too surprised. read the rest of the comments and you'll see it's a bit more complicated than the poll options allowed. plus people like their money. we are in a recession after all. for the record, i would because i know how much damage cyanide does on a reef.

edit: blueabyss, i just realised you're not from vancouver... don't know why i thought you were. well, i guess you're hooped then

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Originally Posted by BlueAbyss

Just a note about sustainability...

You honestly think it is aquarists that are destroying the ocean? Ever watched a shrimp boat sweep the sea clean, only to pick a couple shrimps out of the mess of sealife that ends up on the deck of the boat, and shovel all the dead and dying sealife back into the ocean? Few (if any) of the fish that sit up in the sun while they pick through the mess for the shrimp survive...

Look at how destructive fishing for orange roughy is... I mean really, orange roughy is expensive because there are so few left. Like the cod fishery on Canada's east coast, it was just not sustainable, but that doesn't stop people from eating shrimp, cod, orange roughy...

Me buying a pair of wild-caught fish probably did less damage than me eating 5 shrimp at a restaurant, in all reality. But that's just my $.02, others will undoubtedly see this differently. I just watched a TV show about shrimping the other day, and was so unimpressed with the like 5 shrimp that came out of a full net of ocean animals that I'll likely only eat shrimp on special occasions, and will likely never buy them again.

Unless I'm serving them with beluga caviar and a big bucket of sea turtle eggs.

No your totally right...I never thought of it like that before. I agree though and feel so much better now! Man I used to think I was kind of selfish but you have really changed my mind. I mean the destruction caused by the hobby that I support really doesn't matter as long as there is something even more destructive out there.

Wow this kind of thinking makes it so much easier to justify things! I think I am going to apply this to my everyday life...Long as someone out there is worse than me, I don't have to worry about my actions













Honestly, though, you should do some research and open your eyes. Some collectors are destroying the reef at an alarming rate. Cyanide kills something like a square meter of reef for every one fish caught.

Any destruction of the ocean is important to stop right now, big or small. You can't just justify it or shrug it off because someone out there is doing it worse than you.