Sad news: baby elephant has died.

[Fish]

Originally Posted by Beverly

Actually, elephants lived in the places where farms now exist, so who is the competitor here?

Um... well that's the whole point of my post (I guess I'm not very good at expressing myself today ). Of course we are the competitor! But as the ultimate competitor, would the elephant, or any other animal, strive to prevent our extinction? Would any other animal mourne if we as a species dissapeared from the earth?
It was asked earlier what qualities separated us from the other animals. I merely pointed out that our concern for the welfare of other species (as evident in many of the posts) makes us kinda special (or kinda wierd ) in the animal kingdom.

- Chad

[Quinn]

Without going into details, to assume everything humans do now is adaptive would be foolish.

I expect keeping animals with little resource value in captivity started with the Pharaohs, who brought various African animals back from war with them, perhaps to impress their people.

I wouldn't argue that this isn't a unique and perhaps "higher level" activity, but as shown by Koko's experience with the kitten, this interest in other living things is quite natural, and our concern for other species does not indicate we are somehow special.

[AJ_77]

Originally Posted by teevee

* Belief in evolution can leave a person feeling a bit empty. Modern revisions to Darwin suggest that any organism is really just a vehicle for the propagation of genes... I'm mostly here to give my genes a chance to replicate...

I'm sorry Quinn, you're not angry at all. I forgot how frustrating the quest to replicate one's genes can become...

Great post, that one, BTW. I'm encouraged by the openness and sensitivity displayed by many here.

[Delphinus]

I don't know know whether to be amazed, or impressed, where this has gone.

I wanted to express my sadness at the loss. Whether the practise of attempting to breed is right or wrong, regardless of our place in the universe, or whatever we may feel the need to expound on, this is still a loss.

My condolences and best wishes go out to those who tried so hard. It may not feel as such, but your efforts were not in vain. I think, as a value, quality of life supercedes quantity of life, and this baby knew that she was loved in her brief existence. Such would be my hope, anyhow.

[Beverly]

Originally Posted by muck

Bev,
If this is how you feel how is keeping fish in a glass box any different?
I don't think they choose to live there either...

Yes, you are completely correct that the animals in my tanks are not there because of their choice. Personally, I have conflicting attitudes when it comes to the animals I keep that are not in their native habitat.

One is that I feel guilt by keeping them in an environment not natural to them, even though I try my best to give them as non stressful a place to live as possible. But who knows, according to fish/invert standards, if I am hitting anywhere near the mark.

The other is that I'm as selfish a human being as the rest of us and justify my keeping these animals in that I don't expend a lot of energy on vacations, drive a small car when I drive at all, and try not to be a grand consumer of much of anything else.

I realize the choices we make in life are not black and white, but many shades of grey. I am also fully aware of the dichotomy of my own feelings when it comes to reefkeeping and the keeping of other animals in our care.

[Fish]

Originally Posted by teevee

I wouldn't argue that this isn't a unique and perhaps "higher level" activity, but as shown by Koko's experience with the kitten, this interest in other living things is quite natural, and our concern for other species does not indicate we are somehow special.

I disagree, I feel that the primate examples only demonstrate how powerful the adaptive phenomenon of maternal instinct is. I think it is reasonable that a captive gorilla, wanting to have children would accept and nurture and care for a cat. The point is "are gorrilas as a species (not isolated incidents) as concerned with our well being as we are with theirs? Also the story of the boy that was rescued by the gorrila at the zoo. I think that that story would have turned out a lot differently if the enclosure was full of only males. Or females with their children. Or if the fallee didn't have the good furtune of being bipedal, having opposable thumbs, and bearing a close resemblance to the gorilla herself. I don't think that the recently childless female gorilla would have cared so much for a dolphin that fell into her enclosure.

- Chad

[Fish]

Originally Posted by teevee

Without going into details, to assume everything humans do now is adaptive would be foolish.

I agree, infact I personally believe that adaptive learning motivates us as a species far less than it motivates any other animal. I guess me trying to describe people's behaviour on the same level as other animals' is as problem-frought as you trying to contest humans are not superior by giving examples of animals that posses human-like attributes .
I mean really, if we are not superior over other animals why can't it be due to qualities or physical abilities that other animals posess and we do not? Why must it be due to qualites that we posess that other animals do too???
The focus of the argument itself seems to pre-assume our superiority.
JMO.

- Chad

[Beverly]

Originally Posted by Fish

Um... well that's the whole point of my post (I guess I'm not very good at expressing myself today ). Of course we are the competitor! But as the ultimate competitor, would the elephant, or any other animal, strive to prevent our extinction? Would any other animal mourne if we as a species dissapeared from the earth?

Ahh, okay, I understand what you are saying about humans being the great competitor.

You ask if any other animal would be capable of mourning us if they outcompeted us into extinction. To this I have no answer as I do not know what would go on in the mind of an animal capable of beating us at our own aggressive game.

The only animal that is as aggressive as humans are is other humans. So the question can only be, do we mourn the loss of others we kill in war? Personally, overall, I don't think so.

[Fish]

Originally Posted by Beverly

You ask if any other animal would be capable of mourning us if they outcompeted us into extinction. To this I have no answer as I do not know what would go on in the mind of an animal capable of beating us at our own aggressive game.

That's a good point Beverly, and would also make for a chilling movie .

[christyf5]

WoW!

I thought the Lounge was for aquarium related topics