Where dose it come from?

[reefwars]

Originally Posted by fishytime

cmon Denny you cant really compare a diver with a small net to a commercial troller????

thats true, but none the less its foolish to believe that we cant over fish anything, if theres enough demand then there will b e more nets then that will lead to bigger nets then that leads to boats scraping the ocean for as many fish as they can fish in as big of nets as they can make.


besides isnt a trowller just a boat with a very big net catching everything in its path????

[CandyCane]

The entire purpose of this post was for me to learn what exactly is going on considering wildcaught fish, I'm not cheering it on by any means I'm simply learning more and thanks to you guys and your awesome brains are helping to change my opinions. Is that not the point of debates and sharring opinions is to learn an adapt your own?

[reefwars]

Originally Posted by CandyCane

The entire purpose of this post was for me to learn what exactly is going on considering wildcaught fish, I'm not cheering it on by any means I'm simply learning more and thanks to you guys and your awesome brains are helping to change my opinions. Is that not the point of debates and sharring opinions is to learn an adapt your own?

it is indeed , i think the thing to remember here is things ae getting better and if we never had these discussions then the topics wouldnt get as much attention as they do

word of mouth is a powerfull tool to use

(hear that gobytron lol theres what one person can do to save the reefs)

[abcha0s]

"The world's first coral reefs occurred about 500 million years ago, and the first close relatives of modern corals developed in southern Europe about 230 million years ago. By comparison, the Great Barrier Reef is relatively young at just 500,000 years old. The current reef's structure is much younger at less than around 8,000 years old." - Source Google "how old are the coral reefs"

The reefs as we know them will dissapear. Perhaps in our lifetime. Some coral species will survive scattered throughout the ocean and will eventually form new reefs. However, it might be a hundred thousand years or even a million years before we see anything like what we have today.

One perspective that really stuck with me is that we are not killing this planet. The planet will be just fine. What we are killing is our ability to live on this planet.

Evolution will find a way...

- Brad

[intarsiabox]

Originally Posted by abcha0s@conceptaquatics

One perspective that really stuck with me is that we are not killing this planet. The planet will be just fine. What we are killing is our ability to live on this planet.

Evolution will find a way...

- Brad

+1 After we kill ourselves off by our own stupidity the planet will still be here and thriving. It may not be as it is today but the world is ever changing. I think technology has brought a lot of fear to people. Now everything is monitored, probed, tracked, faked and available globally immediately. The problem is that it wasn't before and we have nothing to compare any of the compiled data to. Only a century ago the world was made up of thousands of microcosims were nobody knew anybody else's business. Now we are dealing with living as one big happy family that knows everybody else's business.

[triggereef]

are you gonna stop driving a car? are you gonna stop using lights in your house? are you gonna stop flushing the toilet?

all of these things have a far greater impact on the environment than taking fish or corals from the ocean.

ever heard "theres plenty of fish in the sea"... literally its true

your profile says you're a LFS manager..... how is your store suppose to make money if fish arent gonna be taken from their natural environment?

In my opinion, No one should say that about our oceans. Yeah there might be alot of fish in the ocean, but what about in 5-10 years? How are all the fish supposed to repopulate fast enough to supply our fish tanks. Look at Newfoundland. They had TONS of cod at one point, but over fished it. Guess what? There is none left. There are so many fish stores around the world. Go look at the lists when a store brings in a shipment once a week. Now times that by every single store in the world that brings that many fish in. If we can even make a small impact on this by giving breeders a chance to sell their fish, Then why not? Breeders can harvest tank fulls of fish - Therefore there is that many less fish that have been taken out of the ocean. Seeing as your post gives the impression that "One person can't change the world", I find it a little ridiculous that you won't support something as small as tank raised fish. Just my opinion though.

[ReefOcean]

I commend you on your desire to be a responsible aquarist, here is a list from reef central:

Clownfish

False Percula Clownfish - Amphiprion ocellaris
Clark's Clownfish - Amphiprion clarkii
Tomato Clownfish - Amphiprion frenatus
Gold-Stripe Maroon Clownfish - Premnas biaculeatus
Cinnamon Clownfish - Amphiprion melanopus
Fire Clownfish - Amphiprion ephippium
Australian Clownfish - Amphiprion rubrocinctus
Orange Skunk Clownfish - Amphiprion sandaracinos
Pink Skunk Clownfish - Amphiprion periderion
Saddleback Clownfish - Amphiprion polymnus
True Percula Clownfish- Amphiprion percula
Sebae Anemonefish- Amphiprion sebae
Twoband Anemonefish- Amphiprion bicinctus
White-tipped Anemonefish- hybrid: Amphiprion sebae x Amphiprion polymnus

Dottybacks

Orchid Dottyback - Pseudochromis fridmani
Striped Dottyback - Pseudochromis sankeyi
Sunrise Dottyback - Pseudochromis flavivertex
Splendid Dottyback - Pseudochromis splendens
Neon Dottyback - Pseudochromis aldabraensis
Diadem Dottyback- Pseudochromis diadema
Lyretail Dottyback- Pseudochromis steenei
Golden Dottyback- Pseudochromis fuscus
Blue-Striped Dottyback- Pseudochromis springeri
Redhead Dottyback- Pseudochromis dilectus

Gobies

Neon Goby - Gobiosoma oceanops
Hybrid Cleaner Goby - Gobiosoma oceanops x Gobiosoma randalli
Yellowline Goby - Gobiosoma randalli
Goldline Goby - Gobiosoma louisae
Pink-Speckled Shrimpgoby- Cryptocentrus leptocephalus
Yellow Watchman Goby- Cryptocentrus cinctus
Luther’s Watchman Goby- Cryptocentrus lutheri
Red-Headed Goby- Elacatinus puncticulatus
Sharknose Goby- Gobiosoma evelynae

Blennies

Striped Poison-Fang Blenny- Meiacanthus grammistes
Green Canary Blenny- Meiacanthus tongaensis
Disco Blenny- Meiacanthus smithi
Canary Blenny- Meiacanthus oualanensis
Mozambique Fangblenny- Meiacanthus mossambicus
Bundoon Blenny- Meiacanthus bundoon
Forktail Blenny- Meiacanthus atrodorsalis
Blackline fangblenny- Meiacanthus nigrolineatus

Grammas

Royal Gramma- Gramma loreto
Blackcap Basslet- Gramma melacara

Cardinalfish
Banggai Cardinalfish- Pterapogon kauderni
Pajama Cardinalfish- Sphaeramia nematoptera

Angelfish

Half Moon Angelfish- Pomacanthus maculosus

Comets and Assessors

Yellow Assessor- Assessor flavissimus
Blue Assessor- Assessor macnelli
Marine Betta- Calloplesiops altivelis

Seahorses

Hippocampus abdominalis
Hippocampus barbouri
Hippocampus capensis
Hippocampus erectus
Hippocampus ingens
Hippocampus kuda
Hippocampus procerus
Hippocampus reidi
Hippocampus tuberculatus
Hippocampus whitei
Hippocampus zosterae

Jacks

Pilotfish- Gnathanodon speciosus

Snappers

Emporer snapper- Lutjanus sebae

Mobile Invertebrates

Bubble-Tipped Anemone- Entacmaea quadricolor
Minature Carpet Anemone- Stichodactyla tapetum
Red Waratah Anemone- Actinia tenebrosa
Queen Conch- Strombus gigas
Fighting Conch- Strombus alatus
Peppermint shrimp- Lysmata wurdemanni (Peppermint shrimp are not yet available, but should be soon. A few months before I wrote this, a wholesaler had some captive-bred peppermint shrimp in grow-out.)
Assorted Snails
Upsidedown Jellyfish- Cassiopea frondosa (The scientific name I give here assumes that the wholesaler uses the same common names as I do. This particular species may or may not be available. If it is not, the most likely alternative would be the Mangrove Upsidedown Jellyfish (Cassiopea xamachana).)


http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1138599

I am quite certain there are many more inverts that can be captive bred including clams more anemones and some urchins.

Virtually every coral can be captive bred through fragging.

Many LFS do carry captive bread stock, but ORA stuff can be pretty pricey I have heard so many LFS still stock wild caught species quite often. The best thing you can do is just ask the LFS the tell you the captive bred critters they carry. Then you can make an informed decision. Maybe you went in for a tomato clown, but it turns out it is wild caught so you opt for the percula, which is captive bred instead..I am not sure if you are this kind of consumer but it doesn't hurt to ask the salesman at the store.

[MarkoD]

Originally Posted by triggereef

In my opinion, No one should say that about our oceans. Yeah there might be alot of fish in the ocean, but what about in 5-10 years? How are all the fish supposed to repopulate fast enough to supply our fish tanks. Look at Newfoundland. They had TONS of cod at one point, but over fished it. Guess what? There is none left. There are so many fish stores around the world. Go look at the lists when a store brings in a shipment once a week. Now times that by every single store in the world that brings that many fish in. If we can even make a small impact on this by giving breeders a chance to sell their fish, Then why not? Breeders can harvest tank fulls of fish - Therefore there is that many less fish that have been taken out of the ocean. Seeing as your post gives the impression that "One person can't change the world", I find it a little ridiculous that you won't support something as small as tank raised fish. Just my opinion though.

Fishing for food and fishing for saltwater tanks is completely different. There are probably a million times more people that eat fish than there are with saltwater tanks. And I never said I don't support tank raised fish, I actually prefer them and buy them whenever I can(cheaper and better accustomed to tank environment).... But since that's not always an option I also buy wild caught.

What the op said is that she won't buy any fish that isn't tank raised. And yes one person can't change the world. One person not buying wild caught fish won't change anything..... No matter how many people you convince not to buy wild caught fish, it won't change anything, because ultimately those who catch the fish will always profit. What's the longest a fish has ever stayed in a display at a tank? Couple weeks to a month? Someone will always come along and buy it.

Just like those who choose not to eat meat. They haven't changed a single thing.

From a morality standpoint if it makes a person feel good then great. But they probably shouldn't hold their breath expecting someone to breed all the fish they would like to get

[ReefOcean]

Originally Posted by MarkoD

Fishing for food and fishing for saltwater tanks is completely different. There are probably a million times more people that eat fish than there are with saltwater tanks. And I never said I don't support tank raised fish, I actually prefer them and buy them whenever I can(cheaper and better accustomed to tank environment).... But since that's not always an option I also buy wild caught.

What the op said is that she won't buy any fish that isn't tank raised. And yes one person can't change the world. One person not buying wild caught fish won't change anything..... No matter how many people you convince not to buy wild caught fish, it won't change anything, because ultimately those who catch the fish will always profit. What's the longest a fish has ever stayed in a display at a tank? Couple weeks to a month? Someone will always come along and buy it.

Just like those who choose not to eat meat. They haven't changed a single thing.

From a morality standpoint if it makes a person feel good then great. But they probably shouldn't hold their breath expecting someone to breed all the fish they would like to get

The idea inst really to protect individual fish, it is to protect the entire coral reef. Sure, the species in aquariums are not close to being threatened, but harvesting tactics in some countries leave huge dead spots in reefs that have taken thousands, if not million years to develop. You say "somebody will always buy it" but saltwater fish are not black market organs or machine guns. If the demand for wild caught species decreases, then harvesting from the reef will decrease, it is simple economics. America has the most saltwater tanks by far, and I mean BY FAR. If even just Americans turned to purchasing readily available captive bred species from places like ORA, they would reduce the global market for wild caught species by 60 percent. If a few more countries did it like Germany, Australia and Canada, Those numbers would be even greater.

It really isn't a pipe dream, it is very feasible. Not only are captive bred species typical hardier, they are also typically bred closer to the front end customer than where wild caught species originate thus reducing logistics costs.

[RuGlu6]

Originally Posted by intarsiabox

You can walk into just about any salt water fish store and buy all the frags and captive bred clownfish you want right now. So stores are already doing something to "make a difference". It's not that stores don't want to sell lots of captive bred fish (cheaper if done on a large scale)its that they can't get them to breed in captivity(people are working on this daily). Rare fish and corals aren't usually rare because there's none to be found in the ocean, it's because they are usually deep water species so most of the collectors who only have access to snorkels and hold their breathe can't reach them. You need a trained deep water scuba diver to collect them and that won't be cheap so there is little market demand, hence rare. Most people on this board buy/trade/sell among each other so every time that happens people are doing something to save a reef. If you own a salt water fish tank then you are directly responsible for reef destruction. Even if you are sure none of your livestock or rock came from the ocean you have still put money into and supported the industry responsible. If people are actually serious about supporting the reefs they would sell every fish related item they had and get out of the hobby forever. Easy to say, hard to do. No different than driving a car instead of an SUV, you are still supporting the oil companies, haven't had to make any personal sacrifice but get to feel better of yourself and less of others. I guess the question is how big of a commitment is one willing to make to save a reef, a little one, a large one, total? I have captive bred fish and coral frags from others, does that make me more enviromentally friendly than other reef keepers? I think not.

+1
If any of us would really want to make a difference we would shut down our tanks. Any fish that we buy in LFS is considered dead sooner or later it will be dead anyway for whatever reason. If the fish is out of the ocean does it matter how many years it will live after that? It will not be able to be as happy in our tank as it could have been in the ocean.