New 160g Instant Ocean buckets

[Bartman]

Originally Posted by Justin

I should point out, from a business perspective, no one should lower prices on salt, or any essential item for that matter. People need it, they have to buy it, so they will pay what it costs. If no one slashed the prices on essential items, retailers would make thier money on the essentials, which would bring down the cost of extra equiptment we all know costs too much.

Welcome to free enterprise. The fact is that someone WILL lower the price (salt, computer, TV, car, couch, food, etc) and people may buy because of it. Retailers will employ whatever strategy they believe will give the best combination of profit and/or market share. Every market has discount sellers and premium/quality outlets and there is room for both. I am sure that no retailer likes being undercut by a competitor but they can be assured of 2 things; it will happen and they choose how to respond. Price cutting is not the only business model. It does not make competitors go out of business. Competition is healthy, the retailer who can't compete isn't any better for the market than the discounter may be viewed (by "compete" I don't mean price). Ultimately the customer decides on any retailer's perceived value. No one can artificially set price/value or quality/value standards and think it is good for the market. If the discounter can't make a profit and goes out of business then their business model was wrong. If a retailer believes their premium level of expertise/support/product is worth more and the customer does not then their business model is wrong. If educating customers advances the market (hobby) so that quality is recognized and valued then the premium vendors gain an advantage.

Just my $0.02

[LostMind]

Justin. I dont want to cause bad blood here, but your arguments fall flat.

Sorry. Logic, common sense and economics betray your points.

Originally Posted by Justin

Is raising the salt going to make the Euroreef skimmer (or another product) cheaper? How could you say no?

Easy... the price of the euroreef is based on what the market will bear. Not the price of salt or the profit made from sale of salt.

Originally Posted by Justin

Manufacturers do care about the price retailers move thier product for. Perhpas read through the last 3 pages of this topic and you will see evidence of that.

I did read the thread before I posted. I see no evidence of this. Perhaps if salt prices suddenly went up at the LFS or certain brands of salt were removed from the sales floor, I could MAYBE make an educated guess that the salt manufacturers were ****ed about low prices, but without the salt manufacturer making a public notice about it, I wont know for sure.

Originally Posted by Justin

You could keep 12 neon gobys, 12 discoma and 3+ condys in a 20 gallon long. Easy.

Smooth dodge. Entirely avoids the thrust of my point. So, with $200 of equip to support this tank, what is the long term health of the tank? Continuous replacement of livestock?

Originally Posted by Justin

Do you have any experiance into the business end of this hobby?

No. Yet I am a small biz owner. But what does that have to do with the discussion at hand?

[Jack]

Man, look what I started. Wish I didn't bring it up.

I just don't want the 160g bucket costing the same as or more than the 200g bucket. Sound fair?

[sumpfinfishe]

Jack I hear ya- Maybe I/O are reducing there salt to cut cost so they can use more funding for there quality assurance statement , as I saw a new add for I/O that states:

The perfect solution for creating the ideal environment. So perfect, in fact, they're performance-certified by Marineland labs-your assurance of superior quality, consistency and value.

As for the King Ed's/ J&L's thing, I would rather go shopping for meat at a butcher than at the supermarket- so as long as there quality, supply, service, and price stay fare then I will keep giving J&L's my $$$. Although time in a day doesn't alway's allow us to go to the butchers, so instead we go to the supermarket for price, selection, or convienence. Hopefully J&L's move to go into fresh won't effect there saltwater focus, if it keeps them afloat then there just staying competitive in a crazy-cut-throat buisness world.

just my two-cents,

[Jack]

Rich, I agree. It will always come down to price no matter what people say.

Maybe Instant Ocean had to change a bunch of quality control issues hence the new lid and smaller buckets. We can only guess.

Have a good Christmas guys.

[StirCrazy]

Originally Posted by Carpentersreef

With all due respect Steve, I don't think that impulse buying is the sign of a responsible reefkeeper, and that will only result in the store carrying more junk IMO that is associated with poor purchase decisions, which attracts poorly informed and ultimately unsuccesful aquarists.

Mitch

Yup...exactly, let me introduce you to 90% of all fish keepers why do you think if you look in the buy and sell of big cities you see tones of tanks for sale (big and small)

why do you think most LFS still bring in morish idols and flowerpot corals.. these are the majority, and everyone seams to always forget we are the minority.

Steve

[StirCrazy]

Originally Posted by Justin

I understand the point you are making, but it is not accurate. Belive me I see it everyday. There are no add-on sales due to the decrease in salt price. No one comes in for salt that was not going to buy it anyways, just because it is cheaper.

sure it does, I know a bunch of people that buy salt when it is cheep.

Originally Posted by Justin

The smart thing to do would be to support the good stores, let them make some money. The money goes back into the store, which comes right back to the customers in increased quality and added service and availability.

spoken just like a store owner "please pay me extrodnary prices so I can get rich and retire."

Originally Posted by Justin

Rock bottom prices to not bring more long term stable hobbiests into the hobby. If anything it brings the people who's tanks will be in the classifieds in 6 months and killed thier tanks inhabitants many times. Low prices do not carry a strong sence of responsability. They only make the item more spontainious and "throw-away". Am I the only one other then UnderWorldAquatics (Kyle?) that sees the importance of responsable price structuring and the advancement of the hobby??

Sorry to inform you buy high prices won't stop flash in the pan hobbiests and classified adds. and I guess you and Kyle both look at it that way because you are ivolved with the industry. either that or you are trying for a hobbiest of the year award.

The fact is 400% mark ups are hiway robery and just plain taking advantage of hobiests by making the hobby sound more important than it is. only 10% of us are responcibe buyser and the sad fact is less than that percentage of LFS are responcible sellers. I don't know any store that won't sell a tank and everything and tell them to come back tomorrow after there salt is mixed to get a few fish. I have even seen the fish sold at the same time as the tank in more places than I care to know.

Steve

[Justin]

I am not trying to cause bad blood either, but I suppose we will agree to disagree.

There is nothing more I can really say, I work in the aquarium industry and it constantly betrays what I was taught in school. It's a different type of industry, based on hobby. It's all optional, not like food. We all need to eat. We don't all need a fish tank.

I totally understand the point your trying to make, and I understand you think I am wrong. But I will go to work on Boxing day and what I say is based on what I see at work, and what I see is reality, and it's completely opposite to what your saying.

Again I totally understand where your comming from, but they are common rules, they do not apply to this hobby/business/industry.

Consider the livestock issue again. Cost does not impact demand, quote economics till your blue in the face and it still won't change the reality of the situation. Just beacuse a clownfish is cheap, it does not increase it's demand. People cannot buy more just because they are cheap. Thier demand is based on what thier system can tolerate. They buy them if they are $12.88 or three times that, just as fast.

And that system for a couple hundred dollars, buy it used, why would you need to change the rock? It's moot, but I understand you point.

Either way it's christmas, happy holidays guys.

[Samw]

I still don't understand why you disagree that demand for livestock is determined by price. I'm not just quoting Economics. This is the real world. Its common sense. Ask this board how many people would buy a clownfish for $20. Then ask how many people would buy a clownfish for $40, $60. You will then see that as the price goes up, less and less people will buy it. Its common sense. You can keep denying Economic theory until you're blue in the face but Economic theory is still the most generally accepted theory for explaining market behavior.

I really would like some references that denies Economic theories for the Aquarium market. In order for price not be an issue in demand, the demand curve has to be vertical (by definition). This is fundamental first and 2nd year Microeconomics.

Here's a reference:

http://spot.colorado.edu/~kaplan/eco.../section4.html

"The other extreme is a good with a vertical demand curve and is perfectly inelastic. Perfectly inelastic goods have no substitutes and are necessities. An example of this type of good is insulin or other pharmaceuticals that are required for someone to live. If the demand curve is vertical, the firm can raise prices by 1% or (higher) and the quantity demanded will not change. Consumers find a way to continue buying the good."

So this seems to contradict your claim that the livestock demand curve is not affected by price due to it not being essential. In fact, the only time that price does not affect the demand curve is when a good IS essential.

In fact, the demand curve for livestock is very elastic and very sensitive to price change because 1. livestock is NOT essential, and 2. livestock has many substitutes. If the price of clownfish is too high, people will either buy a cheaper fish (because there are substitutes) or not buy the fish at all (because its not essential).

Here's a reference:

http://spot.colorado.edu/~kaplan/eco.../section4.html

"Perfectly elastic goods have a horizontal demand curve reflecting the presence of identical substitutes. For example, assume that you are shopping for flour at the local grocer. You find two bins of wheat flour located side by side. One is full of flour labeled "wheat flour from wheat grown in Zeppo County, Kansas" and costs $0.75 a pound. The other bin is also full and labeled "wheat flour from wheat grown in Harpo County, Kansas" and costs $0.40 a pound, otherwise the attributes of the flour are identical. Which would you purchase?"

Nothing I see at the aquarium stores betrays what I learned in Economics. Everything matches exactly as expected. I can't see any reason at all why the Aquarium market should defy Economic theory and behavior. What I see on this board and in the stores matches everything that is taught and documented to the Tee.

If you have any references why the Aquarium industry does not follow Economic theory, I would love to read it.

If we took a poll here, we should see that the reefers' buying behaviors agree with Economic theory.

I see points from many different people with different ideas, and they all make sense in certain applications. One point I could make is that there are many niche markets inside of this niche market of marine life. In my opinion, and Im not putting anyone down cuz Im the same way in many aspects... hobbyists, like the ones on this board, are generaly "cheap", usually looking for a deal, some shop at wherever the product they want is cheapest, trading frags, buying frags, trading livestock of any sort. This is not a bad thing, I think it is a good thing, it keeps our hobby a little more enviro friendly, "a little". Then there are people that want a pretty tank in their house and have little time, or put little effort into maintaining it, this group in my experience makes up half of the costomers of this hobby. Then there are the elite hobbyists, they have lots of cash, and spend big bucks, they also usually put alot of time into the hobby, these folks make up a small portion of this hobby. Then there are the status customers, "I like the blue one, can we have that yellowish one, those are pretty, can you put lots of them in..." these are the customers who have loads of cash, no interest in learning the hobby, but want their friends and foes to envy them. Bling, Bling customers you could say. These make up most of my customer base, they dont care what things cost, with some things they would pick the more expensive item just to say that they have it. In kelowna there is a funny attitude among the more well off folks, they wont buy it unless its expensive, makes no sense but its true, if you give them a quote on something and they hesitate, tell them youll get back with them, let them know about the new inflated quote and they say, sure lets do it... works for me, I supply to mostly the later 2 groups, I setup and maintain their tanks, they pay a premium for this service, they pay more for livestock than I charge to caring hobbyists, people like you on this board are able to take the livestock and take care of it yourself, thus cheaper, less work for me, customers who make me work harder get charged more for the same thing. dont know if this makes sense to anyone, but running my business this way is the only reason I have been doing well business wise. my product and quality are top notch, you get what you pay for, but it does come at a premium. I know the way i run our business dashes the economic laws to pieces, but thats the way it is.
When I ran my business the way economic laws would dictate, I was not doing very well at it, now things are peachy.... since this thread was origionaly about salt, sorry if I kinda ruined you thread. I too think that if the quantity of salt is less in the new buckets, i would like to see the price adjusted accordingly...