The RED List of Fish, Inverts, and Corals

[lorenz0]

in all honesty i think most fish shouldn't even be kept in anything under 100gal...

but you guys are talking about fish that need special requirements. Think about all those fish out there that are housed in small tanks (like yellow tangs in 30 gals). Personally i think anything that isn't recognized as a nano fish should be on that list cause most people'd tanks are under 50gal.

[fishoholic]

Originally Posted by GreenSpottedPuffer

This is my favorite quote from that list:

"Centropyge heraldi (almost always caught using drugs)"

I have zero tolerance for drug use in my tank. Any fish caught using drugs is taken straight back to the LFS. Warnings like this are perfect since now I know Lemon Peel Angels are almost always going to do drugs.

Just say NO to drugs

Originally Posted by GreenSpottedPuffer

I would like to say the same but since I still don't believe in a complete ban of all these red list fish, I can't say I will. In fact I know if I ever found AEFW in my tank, I would be after the Nudibranchs that eat them in a heartbeat. I also have plans to try a Moorish Idol one day (especially since many of the recent ones coming into JL have been eating right away and I will buy it Zoas and sponges to eat). With regards to the Moorish Idol, I will only try one and if it doesn't work, I know better than to keep trying...I learned that lesson with Copperbands.

IMO the red list fish need to be more carefully brought into stores through special order but not banned completely unless they are endangered.

I have to agree. Especially since I MIGHT (not 100% for sure yet) be getting an Achilles Tang soon. FYI if I do get one it will be going into the fowlr tank so it will be the only tang in the tank.

Originally Posted by GreenSpottedPuffer

Doubt the mods would go for it but a new section for this would be the way to go. Then inside a thread for each species which somehow is organized into the color categories such as Red (Extremely difficult, Best left in the ocean), Orange (Difficult, Not recommended) , Yellow (Proceed with caution, experienced keepers), Green (Good survival rate) and then maybe even Purple (Best fish choices for new to the hobby). Might be too much but you get the point. If there was a quick reference list as a sticky at the top of this section with the fish names, species names and color key, that would help direct people quickly.

As for the first post in each individual fish thread...as you said not too much but at least reasons either to keep or not keep the fish along with some data in much the same fashion Fishbase has. Then after that people are free to discuss/debate the fish and share experiences.

Might be too much work though plus I doubt mods are going to want to get that far in depth.

I really like your idea, I think that it could work fairly well. The mods are a really good group of people on here, I'm sure they wouldn't have to many issues with it as long as it was done in a proper and respectful way.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Originally Posted by marie

I don't mean to confuse the issue (aww who am I kidding yes I do ) but how do you go about keeping things straight within the colour groupings ie: damsels, great fish, tough as nails, can go in small tanks but still not recommended as a good fish for newbies to get because of the fish's desire to rule the world... or mandarins, they're a hardy, tough as nails fish to keep, providing you can keep it fed. If your tank is big enough and has had enough time to grow a thriving pod population, the mandarin pretty much can look after itself. Nobody bothers them, they can take a wide variety of water parameters and they are disease resistant

Easy, Im not sure where the confusion is...you answered your own questions really. A fish like mandarins are NOT a great fish to be encouraging people to keep as they do not have a very high survival rate. They would be an example of a fish that is in a category for more experienced reefers with an established tank. Its just a way to educate people. Hopefully if they see that Mandarins are on a "tough" to keep list, they will think about if their system is suitable.

And damsels, I don't think they would even come up but if they did, came thing, caution would be warned as they can be nasty.

I think your looking at it very one dimensional. Mandarins are not tough as nails unless eating and quite often not eating...so they are not close to an easy fish. They are also cyanide caught a majority of the time. Another reason they should not be encouraged.

Originally Posted by fishoholic

Just say NO to drugs



I have to agree. Especially since I MIGHT (not 100% for sure yet) be getting an Achilles Tang soon. FYI if I do get one it will be going into the fowlr tank so it will be the only tang in the tank.



I really like your idea, I think that it could work fairly well. The mods are a really good group of people on here, I'm sure they wouldn't have to many issues with it as long as it was done in a proper and respectful way.

Ya I think the mods would go for it as long as say Myka is willing to organize it all and get things going

Oh and the Achilles Tang is most likely a species I will try one day. I will wait until I have a bigger tank than a 200G because I feel they need more room than an average tang but I would try one day. Thats kind of the point of this. Not to tell people absolutely no but try to make sure if they do feel the need/desire to get a fish like an Achilles, they realize how tough they can be to keep and hopefully provide it with a good home.

[fishoholic]

Originally Posted by GreenSpottedPuffer

Ya I think the mods would go for it as long as say Myka is willing to organize it all and get things going

Oh and the Achilles Tang is most likely a species I will try one day. I will wait until I have a bigger tank than a 200G because I feel they need more room than an average tang but I would try one day. Thats kind of the point of this. Not to tell people absolutely no but try to make sure if they do feel the need/desire to get a fish like an Achilles, they realize how tough they can be to keep and hopefully provide it with a good home.

Go Myka

I will not buy an achilles unless it is from a reliable source (which I have and is getting some possibly Fri.) and I will not buy one that isn't eating, however my source is reliable and works hard to insure the fish are healthy and eating before selling them, so we'll see what happens.

[marie]

Originally Posted by GreenSpottedPuffer

Easy, Im not sure where the confusion is...you answered your own questions really. A fish like mandarins are NOT a great fish to be encouraging people to keep as they do not have a very high survival rate. They would be an example of a fish that is in a category for more experienced reefers with an established tank. Its just a way to educate people. Hopefully if they see that Mandarins are on a "tough" to keep list, they will think about if their system is suitable.

And damsels, I don't think they would even come up but if they did, came thing, caution would be warned as they can be nasty.

I think your looking at it very one dimensional. Mandarins are not tough as nails unless eating and quite often not eating...so they are not close to an easy fish. They are also cyanide caught a majority of the time. Another reason they should not be encouraged.

.

I have had 5 mandarins, 1 female went carpet surfing in the 2nd yr, 1 lived for 4 1/2 years after being bought as an adult and the 3 I have now I've had for at least a year and a half. It has to be more then coincidence that I managed to find 5 mandarins not cyanide caught when they haven't even come from the same source


They have lived through failed heaters (temp down to 68), extreme abuse from an aggressive clown, high ammonia (quarantine tank) , high salinity...ect.. The one thing I have always made sure of is enough live rock to ensure a high pod population until they start eating mysis. 4 out of the 5 eat/ate frozen mysis, the only one that I haven't actually seen eat mysis is the female I have now but her body is thick and obviously not starving.

The point I was making is if a mandarin has a thriving live food source that can sustain itself when first introduced they can survive serious abuse without ill effects. I would never recommend them to newbies simply because a new tank can't possibly support their need for live food but they are by no means difficult


These are but 2 examples I guess what i'm saying is...what makes a fish difficult, any fish no matter what species can die from cyanide does that make them all difficult? If you see an angel that is known for not eating, eating in the store is it still too difficult to keep? Clarkii clowns are as viscious as any damsel. I'm just wondering what line is drawn for a fish to make the red list

[whatcaneyedo]

... and history just keeps on repeating itself. Most people would rather complain and object to a list rather than actively read one and understand its purpose.

Anyways, based on my 5 years of limited experience I'd nominate the banded snake eel, elegance corals, goniopora sp, linkia starfish, and the strawberry blue coral (thats what it was called... I still have no idea of what it actually was) to be added to the red list. Dwarf Lionfish are also quite difficult to wean onto frozen food so maybe the yellow list for them.

[marie]

Originally Posted by whatcaneyedo

... and history just keeps on repeating itself. Most people would rather complain and object to a list rather than actively read one and understand its purpose.

....

Originally Posted by marie

I don't mean to confuse the issue (aww who am I kidding yes I do ) ...

[3MTA3]

Originally Posted by Myka

I figured we could all get together and write up a red list of fish, inverts, and corals that should be left in the ocean due to the fact that they are nearly impossible to keep in aquaria for one reason or another. Let's do a red list and a yellow list for those that are questionable. Please suggest animals and I can't think of all of them on my own right now.

The Red List - Leave these animals in the ocean. Do not buy them, do not encourage LFSs to carry them:

The Yellow List - For very experienced reef keepers only.



RED LIST:


~ Nudibranchs of any kind (have very specific diets and usually die short term)
~ Blue Ribbon Eel (reach 4' length, do not adapt well to captivity, high mortality possibly from Cyanide poisoning)
~ Wild Collected Bangaii Cardinal ("Critically Endangered Species", poor acclimation to captivity, buy captive bred instead)
~ Moorish Idol (rumoured 5% of the fish captured make long term survival, lack of appetite, and prone to disease)
~ Panther Grouper (reach 2' length, "Endangered Species")
~ Butterfly fish - Exquisite, Orange Face, Ornate (these species feed primarily or possibly even exclusively on coral polyps, will starve to death in captivity)

YELLOW LIST:

~ Copper Banded Butterfly (high long term mortality as most are caught using Cyanide)
~ Starfish (other than Brittle and Serpent, most are near impossible to keep long term)
~ Mandarin Dragonets (rarely eat packaged foods, most will only eat live copepods, most will die from starvation)
~ Cleaner Wrasse (specialized diet, poor long term survival)
~ Wild Caught True Percula Clownfish (poor shipping and acclimation rates, high susceptibility to Brookynella)
~ Large Angelfish - Regal, Queen, French, Blue Ring, Emperor (often caught with Cyanide, require specific diet of sponges, prone to disease, often refuse to eat in captivity)
~ Flame Scallops (heavy feeders, high long term mortality)
~ Non-photosynthetic Gorgonian corals (these are usually the brightly colored ones, heavy feeders, high long term mortality)
~ Bamboo sharks (some species reach 4' length)
~ Powder Blue and Powder Brown Tangs (high susceptibility to Ich and HITH, challenging species to keep healthy)

and another qoute from another thread

Originally Posted by Myka

Nice photos of some really nice corals as usual!

However, I have disheartened to see that you carry Banded Sharks (aka Bamboo Sharks), as well as Flying Gurnards. Both of which should be left in the ocean. Could you explain why you endorse the import of these animals?

and another

Originally Posted by Myka

J&L has a couple things on their New & Noteworthy page that I might be interested in picking up(would these be the red listed items that show?), but not worth it just on my own. If anyone is interested in adding to the order (asap as I'm leaving town on Friday) so we could get over $200 for the $25 air shipping I'd be game. I think if we order before Weds we could get Thursday morning arrival...but I'm not 100% sure. I will call tomorrow if there's some interest in this.

After reading through this forum for some time now one person has stood out above the rest and if no one else will say then I will.

Myka,
It is nice you feel you are being the savior to those who cannot be for themselves. But albeit a little hypocritical.
I read one of your threads awhile back where you stated you have a Tang in your 33G tank that you were having an algae problem with? I just read a post today where you told someone their 65G was to small for a tang? How do you justify this?
In another thread you ask a store to justify themselves....also making statement that 99% of reefers or salt water enthusiasts are not capable of housing these animals.

where do you get this 99% figure from?

Then you go off making this posted thread about "red" list and "yellow" list...and THEN post a "I wanna group buy from J&L" and lo and behold when you go to their "new and noteworthy*tm*(just in case they trademarked it lol) there are at least TWO items on your RED LIST.... Have they justified these imports to you? Have you asked them to justify it?
So I have to ask....what makes it okay for one and not another?

Also your reference to "cyanide caught" in most items on your list...Where do you get this reference? Have you personally seen these injustices? or is this just coming from what you read or hear or the voices? What qualifies you as the leading expert to make these statements as cut and dry facts/truths?

Your post's have a "smile to your face but snicker behind your back" feel to them. I am sorry but I haven't seen anything constructive in your posts. Just judgement. I think an apology to all the members you have talked down to and belittled in all your glory of knowing all would be appropriate. Maybe you should make a "Mykas guide to do as I preach, not as I do". I hope people can go back and see your prior posts to see how much of a hypocrite you are!

If you wanna save the world this certainly isnt the way to do it. If anyone is unsure of what they can and cant do I am sure they can research it and will find most topics are 6 of one half a dozen of another. Opinions are like rearends...everyone has one. Please add me to your red list as I am sure to be extinct soon or at least gone from this forum as free speech seems to actually come with a cost nowadays.

*signed*
B.S.
Cheers

[Madreefer]

Hmmm...... is this what you call deja vu? These "lists" do cause alot of debates. Everyone has such different opinions in this hobby but this topic seems to turn out to be one of the nastiest. I like the extra butter on my popcorn

[JDigital]

Wow.......