Importance of the Invoice

[Troy F]

Last thing...really.

Originally Posted by VDB

A good aquarist uses his experience, common sense, and knowledge to judge a fish based on quality, health, appearance, behaviour, and feeding.

Doesn't matter how "good an aquarist" you are, cyanide caught fish are impossible to really tell.

[sumpfinfishe]

Nice post Sam!

I would in fact buy fish from a trusted LFS without seeing anything on paper.
The underlined word above says it all for me. I have been reefing now for 6 years. When I first started out in the hobby I did loose a few fish, some of those loses were my fault and some were not. Over the past 6 years I have come to trust certain LFS's for there livestock, with that said I won't buy fish from other LFS if I believe I can't trust them.

Finally, if I was a reefer just starting out in this hobby, instead of asking for an invoice to put my mind at ease, I would instead ask local reefers at meetings or on boards like this one through private messages where they purchase there fish from and how there survival rates are. After my first year in the hobby, I can honestly say that I have not lost a fish in a short time after purchasing it.

And just for the record, no I'm not calling you a rookie Sam, that was just for the beginners

Troy, please do not judge an animals ability to survive in captivity or its appropriateness for captivity based on whether an LFS can keep it alive.
There are many factors that can greatly affect an animals chances of survival in captivity, the majority of these happen before the animal even lands in Canada or Los Angeles.


Give me a break Tim, if the odd goniapora survives for a year or so in hobbyists' tank and an even fewer number survive longer than that we can probably assume they're better left in the ocean. I respect a retailer who know this. It's like pacific host anemones, once they're in a good tank their survival rate is fairly good. However, if the majority of them die in the store's tanks maybe they too should be left in the ocean. If the hobby can't survive doing what's right maybe there shouldn't be a hobby.


Im going to back Tim up on this one, if you cant keep goniapora or host pacific anemones alive then you are most likely not properly caring for them. Some exceptions such as bad shipping or poor handling. You should also refrain from trying to keep them untill you have the knowledge needed to properly care for them. I have seen both host anemones and goniapora florish in my facility, flourish in Tims facility, and flourish in my customers tanks. I have many customers with goniapora that they have cared for for over 4 years. Out of about 50 gonipora I have brought in over the last 2 years I only know of 1 that died. If you keep goniapora in a tank setup for SPS of course it wont make it, it needs specialized care! If you would also notice that the stores that have problems keeping certain species, also usually have poorer quality livestock. Or they dont bring it in cuz they dont have the time to take care of its special requirements. I have one customer that refers to host anemones as the plauge as he usually has about 4-5 anemone splits per month. This happens because he properly cars for his anemones

[Aquattro]

I'm just going to add one more thing to this......I just went back to the LFS and looked at the invoice from yesterday's fish order (by the nature of my relationship with the owner, I am allowed to see it) and NOWHERE on the invoice does it state the origin of the fish. It has the letterhead info of the seller, a list of fish, and the cost of each fish. Nothing more. Period. The invoice does not tell me if the fish is from the north pole or Tahiti.
So, while this has been an enlightening thread, I think it is also a pointless thread, from the invoice side of things anyway.

I also visisted the LFS #2 in town, and they would not show an invoice either. The clerk did state the supplier is generally the same as LFS #1.

[Troy F]

Sorry DBA, you must know something the rest of the hobby doesn't. I don't believe your 49:50 survival rate on goniopora for even a second. I'm not new to the hobby here, you may sell that to the unsuspecting but c'mon man. "For currently unknown reasons, Goniopora have a long history of failing to survive in the the aquarium, often going into a slow demise for no apparent reason." Eric H. Borneman. As for your reference to anemones, I think you should re-read my post. Another point is that the quality of care these animals receive is not always the same. Your friend with the splitting BTAs is doing something right but if you want to see the amount of people that aren't doing so well with them have a read around the boards and then imagine that they're just the ones that post their loss and of that we're still the minority of people that use the bbs compared to those that purchase marine livestock.

It sounds like you have a very specialized clientelle. On one hand you've told us that your clients are rich and just want something to look good and next you're saying that they are able to care for the most difficult species that have the lowest survival rate. Something's wrong with your story.

[naesco]

DBA
I am sorry but I don't beleive your story either.
You need to contact our well know reefing expert, Eric Borneman and advise him and the other experts who are currently studying this coral.
Let him know your and your coutomers secret to keeping them because the rest rest of the world can't keep them alive.
Borneman is of the opinion that this coral is an impossible to keep coral and should be banned from import.

[Samw]

There are various species of Goniopora and from what I read, some of them are not impossible to keep. I tend to believe that.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...002/invert.htm

"In my opinion, it is wrong to generalize that all "Goniopora" are difficult to keep. There are numerous species, and they behave differently in captivity. I reported (Sprung, 1999a, Sprung 1999b) that certain species of Goniopora are easy to keep, contrary to popular belief, and that most Alveopora are similarly hardy"

"These "easy Gonioporas" are the ones with which I have had long-term success, in excess of five years. More recently I have been working on Goniopora stokesi. I believe I have discovered what it needs to prevent and cure the wasting condition, and why it occurs, but before I explain that, I want to review the state of opinion among aquarists concerning the genus."

"Goniopora cf. somaliensis has been imported from Indonesia with some regularity, and it is popular owing to the fact that it is among the hardiest species. It fares well both in low light low flow aquariums and bright light strong flow aquariums"

"Goniopora tenuidens is known to have other color combinations, and the species I am discussing may in fact be another species, though it matches no other in Veron (2000). This species fares well under strong illumination and moderate water flow, but it appears to require supplementation with iron and manganese"

[naesco]

SamW
By the way thank you for starting this thread.
Most of the posts were excellent.
I remember when I first started it was a little difficult to ask the LFS if the fish I was interested in was eating. Now no one would consider buying a fish without seeing it eating.

We are now half way on the education of reefers on the cyanide issue.
All reefers will now be asking where the fish they are interested in comes from as a matter of course and hopefully the onlien stores and LFS will get cyanide free fish and answer truthfully.
The next step will be "Will you please show me where the fish came from."

"In my opinion, it is wrong to generalize that all "Goniopora" are difficult to keep. There are numerous species, and they behave differently in captivity. I reported (Sprung, 1999a, Sprung 1999b) that certain species of Goniopora are easy to keep, contrary to popular belief, and that most Alveopora are similarly hardy"

I never said what species of goniapora I had good success with. It would be much more polite to ask for some additional info on the subject before jumping to conclusions. The various species of goniopora and alveapora I have cared for for have done very very well in my care, and in my customers tanks, which I maintain!!! I use these corals in my customers tanks because they want something pretty, and I want it to be easy to care for, I am busy and dont want to be checking up on overly finicky corals every day. Also I said I had a customer that has good success with BTA's, well he does, true most of my customers are rich and just want a pretty tank, but I do have a few hobbiests that buy from me, he is one of them. No need to jump to conclusions, if something seems like it dosent jive, just ask whats up...

[EmilyB]

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