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#1
03-13-2003, 05:02 AM
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Gazza, I'm pretty sure this will never end.... hey if there really was one best salt the others would go out of business.
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#2
03-13-2003, 05:03 AM
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Quote:
Kent says that if copper concentration is that high, you will get invert deaths. Gaaza explains that Dr. Ron's tests showed invert deaths with Kent salt. Therefore there's a possibility that copper concentration is high in the Kent mix. Now, its not certain what exactly in the Kent salt caused a higher death rate. Copper is just one of many metals that tested high at the lab but it is a proven toxin. Many companies claim many things as I know. Sure, you can take Kent at their word. But then we have to take Marine Enterprises, Aquacraft, etc at their word as well. Then how about the Atkinson and Bingman studies? Should we ignore those test results? http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/a.../1/default.asp I think what people are hoping for are not company statements but results from more research. But we certainly do appreciate your efforts to communicate with Kent.
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#3
03-13-2003, 05:33 AM
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Taking people or companies at their word is fine if they are reputable, Kent, in my humble opinion has proven themselves as reputable.... If you take the Pope at his word does that also mean Saddam Hussein has to be taken at his word too? Of course not, form opinions, and trust your judgment.
I understand what Gazza is saying I'm not knocking Gazza's opinions but I am trying to clarify that the S-15 report is bogus. Other reports may be more accurate, but when the Scientists at Kent tell me that their salt has near NSW of copper and they also say "I see no reason you can't quote our answers to you" I tend to think they have nothing to hide. Salts are alot of personal taste, and not so much science for the most part. We support what we like, and we tend to oppose what we don't like, sometimes we like things for nothing more than the pretty package other times we like things for what we consider more concrete reasons. I like what I like because I like it, you may not like it but thats okay. Personally my ability to do trace element testing is limited. I test for Ca, pH and Alk, and soon for Mg.... I Like consistancy, if I have to add 5ml of SeaChem Reef complete 2 times a week, I'm fine with that, as long as my Ca level doesn't bounce around from water change to water change. I like to know ahead of time what I am dealing with, I hate suprises unless they are to my benefit.. which they rarely are, so I stick with what is consistant. Copper levels 50 times that of NSW?.... dunno, my inverts don't seem to mind, and I don't use a water conditioner that binds heavy metals. FWIW, we tend to run our tanks for optimizing growth and health of our corals, if maintaining NSW conditions were our prime goal we wouldn't be feeding our corals DTs, we wouldn't be skimming, and we wouldn't be adding suppliments on a regular basis. We (speaking for myself anyway) want to see our corals thrive, and grow fast, it's a pat on our own back when we can see a purple cap Monti grow almost closed into a tube from a half tube shape just over a month ago. It is a pride thing, an ego. I like to keep my tank nutrient rich so my corals have the maximum exposure to food. If I thought my salt had a copper content that high I may as well just give up because I would be poisoning my tank deliberatly. I am looking forward to seeing what comes of this study/experiment Emily linked to.. sounds interesting.
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#4
03-13-2003, 06:02 AM
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Its fine to take a company's word but that doesn't discredit the research done by independent researchers. Aquarium Systems (makers of Instant Ocean and Maxijets) has a good reputation but when they claim to build efficient protein skimmers, can we take their word based on reputation of the company? You might think the Pope has a reputation and we should take his word but what if you aren't Christian? Let's agree that the S-15 is bogus and look at the other research (experiments and water analysis) done by the researchers Atkinson, Bingman, Shimek.
Its not hard for me to believe that some salt mix has 50 times more copper than NSW because 50 times nearly 0 is still nearly 0. The amount of copper in the ocean is negligible and 50 times that is still insignificant to most animals other than the most sensitive ones such as larvae. I've put copper medication before into my tank with shrimps and crabs and haven't lost any. Let's keep an open mind and see both sides (you mentioned above that you hadn't look at the research yet). No one is saying that Kent is trying deceive us. All we know is that in various controlled experiments, some animals died in greater numbers in certain salt mixes than others. Its only natural then to look for differences between 2 salts and try to determine cause and effect. If the salts did not cause the differences in mortality, can you think of another cause? For the record, no one has stated for a fact that copper is killing the larvae. Even Dr. Shimek is not saying 100% that it is defintely copper. I wouldn't be shocked if we later find out that Bio-Sea and Crystal Sea salts has the same level of copper as Kent in future tests. All I am convinced of is that more larvae died in some salt mixtures over the other in the experiments all else equal. And I'm fairly confident of the RELATIVE measured numbers from Atkinson and Bingman unless there is a good reason why they might be false. Quote:
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#5
03-13-2003, 03:11 PM
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Well I think my number one focus is going to be letting my reef decide which brand of salt is best. Sure there's lot's to debate here, and some serious concerns have been brought to reefers attention, and some really good points have been made here too. I have used the same brand of salt for over five years now without any problems. I have had minimal to almost no algae in my reef, all my fish/corals/inverts have lived long and healthy, and my water perameters have always remained stable.
I'm going to try another salt mix for the next few months. After that trial period is over, I will then let my reef decide weather or not I should stick with the other brand. I'm more concerned how my fish/coral/inverts react rather than if someone states that the numbers don't jive. This may be an old school way of thinking but it's what works for me, or should I say my reef. I am very sceptical about using this other brand, however if the reef reacts in positive ways, then who knows-maybe it's a step in the right direction.  cheers, the salt wagon jumper
__________________
cheers, Rich all that we do is touched with ocean, yet we remain on the shore of what we know http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2005/5/aquarium
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#6
03-13-2003, 03:40 PM
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Quote:
__________________
Bob ----------------------------------------------------- To be loved you have to be nice to people every day - To be hated you don't have to do squat. ---------Homer Simpson--------
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#7
03-13-2003, 04:18 PM
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Bob it doesn't have anything to do with Salt obviously, it was merely a comparison. Sorry for the confusion.
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#8
03-15-2003, 02:08 AM
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Hey folks long time no see. This is an interesting topic. As we all know it has been Rons latest crusade. Looking at his experiments, I find them to be once again to be of no use and done without any research on his part and basically to get it stirred up for the next masna. The urchin larva test was done to try to get back on the heavy metal gig again. His experiment was one tracked pointing to just heavy metal, did he not test for ammonia, phospates or anything else, so no matter what the larvae dies and the only possible conclution that is in the experiment is Metals. Heres another test by a government agancy that can also give u a hint why they died.
http://www.pfiesteria.org/publicatio...nisolation.pdf Did anyone notice that one of the tanks of a reefer had as good a results as did the NSW?? thats a big clue as to what is going on here. We all know that we get metals from salts/foods and mostly from the additives we use, but has anyone noticed that when we test for them we dont get any results??? wheres the metals going?? thats the key to the whole thing. and u know what its not going inot the LR. test for it, I did. It cost me some money but you know what my 7 year old rock has only slight traces of any minerals. And God knows how many tons of IO I have used over the years.. This time Ron buddy is going to bring this thing full circle and we will see how his last cursade (DSB's) stands up to it. anyway sorry for the long post I am just real tired of his antics take care all MIke
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#10
03-15-2003, 05:06 AM
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I'm still not familiar with his work but I will read that other link you provided. I still think people should use what they are most comfortable with, I'm really not sure we ever will find out what the best salt mix is.
My favorite works for me, and I hear lots of people use IO.... it must be bad then huh.... lol Doug... btw, I'm really not trying to stir up the hornets nest, I'm just stubborn.
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