Importance of the Invoice

"DBA, how are many of the people to know if the retailer tells the truth. They know that many of the Philippine and Indo fish are cyanide caught so it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to think some may not be forthright. "

I feel that if you walk into a store and feel that there is something fishy going on "lol" there quite posibly could be. Get to know your LFS before making any purchases, you should be able to get a very good idea as to how trustworthy they are. I know that there is alot of hype about cynide caught fish from the phillipines, and it is true to an extent, but there are also alot of nice healthy fish coming from the phillipines. If your LFS store is getting alot of cynide fish you will notice by observing their in tank fish, and you will definitally notice by purchasing cynide caught fish, you will most likely have dead fish. If this is the case I can only recommend you notify your suspicions to your LFS and they see what they do about it. This is when I would recommend you start making "ALL" of your purchases at a LFS that seems to always have healthy livestock, if you buy the sale item from the LFS that has the poor quality livestock you might as well be the one dumping cynide into the reefs, because your support of the unethical LFS leads to more cynide fish. DO NOT support your LFS that seems to consistantially have poor quality livestock as this only keeps them in business. This is something that is most dependant on educated reefers like the ones on this board. Also on another note, there are certian organizations set up that will give their seal of aproval verifying cynide free fish, personally I take it with a grain of salt, some people are only in the positions they are in to make absurd amounts of money and they will put their stamp on anything that comes from the man who paid for their new BENZ. The industry is in a pretty sadly run state if you ask me, there are alot of great people that are in the business cuz they love the livestock, but there are more that are in the game because they see a chance to make an absurd amount of money off of a plot of ocean that is far away from their home. I am in a unique situation that I can purchase direct from the source when I want and sell direct to the consumer. I also sometimes out of convience buy from other wholesalers that I have a good relationship with and I trust their livestock to be of the best health. I personally dont sell much to "Hobbiests" most of my customers have more money than they know what to do with, so they want an aquarium, they have tanks cuz its a symbol of sucess, like the tanks im putting together right now,"588gallon seamless 60"diameter cylinder that is 4'tall, best of everything, yeah its $50,000.00 but hey it looks damb good!" my customers have a 6month guarntee on all their livestock if I have supplied all the livestock, I can do this because I know what Im putting in their tanks, my fish are also all net caught to the best of my knowledge and my customers pay a premium for this piece of mind. I hope that some on this board will have a chance to visit my facility that is being built, I am definatally at an advantage over a "Pet Store" and am able to concetrate on quality. Well basically the hobbiests out there can make an ethical decision to NOT SUPPORT certain LFS and they can make their purchases at the very obvious caring respectable ethical LFS. Well its getting late and the beer is needing a refill, Ill tie this one off for know...
I dont mean to insult anyone but I know how I run my business and I try to know where my livestock comes from, I actually make sure the customer knows where its from. I personally would take it as a huge insult if someone came and saw my livestock and asked to see an invoice after I just told them where it is from.

[DBM]

If the retailer has a coral beauty from Fiji, don't worry he'll let you know - he has to justify the more expensive price. Otherwise it's from Indonesia or the Philippines. More than likely your retailer will tell you the truth as to where it came from (if they even know). IMHO asking to see an invoice is arrogant if you've already asked them.

You can't tell the origin of a fish from a list anyways (if it came from a wholesaler). If it came from a transhipper you should assume it came from Indonesia, Philippines, and occasionally Sri Lanka (net caught), unless it came in with Fijian live rock.

You can't tell a cyanide caught fish from a net-caught one in a retailer's tanks, there is no way to tell - no matter what people are telling you. Crappy livestock in your retailer's tanks is most likely attributed to poor handling.

[GregJ]

I'm curiuos to know why everyone is so hungup on a peice of paper? Do you know how easy it would be to doctor one of those! At least you can catch the crappy LPS stores in a lie, if they have to come up with some sort of story. Wait until every LFS store has a copy of there invoice, with everything but the loction blacked out, then it will really be hard to tell the good from the bad. Personally I think that it's great when someone takes the time to talk to me, and would find it insulting after they spent time telling me about the fishes location to ask to see the invoice, I mean whats the point then, they might as well hire someone for $8 an hour if all they're going to be doing is showing an invoice. I have found that most of the good people in this hobby are in it because they love what they do and will spend the time to talk to you. Besides most of the good LPS have some sort of guarentee, and it isn't really in there interest to sell you a fish that your going to return. I'd like to think that there are still good people out there and that I can still count on someones word without having to see some invoice. That said, there are also idiots out there that think they know everything, but again either I catch them saying something stupid and go talk to someone else or I live and learn, either way there out of my life and won't get any praise from me when asked. Just my .02

[ron101]

Do you know how easy it would be to doctor one of those!

That's what I'm thinking. So you tell the salesperson that you are concerned about cyanide caught fish and ask him where the fish came from and he tells you. Either he is, to the best of his knowledge, telling you the truth or he is being unscrupulous and telling you a lie.

Sure there is a humane reason for asking to see an invoice in this case but like someone else said, try that at a hardware store and you will likely be promptly and politely denied; it is just not good business. Not to mention that if you are being told a lie then what is to say the unscrupulous salesperson won't show you a bogus document.

I asked the salesperson at one of the big LFS about cyanide caught fish ni general. I was surprised to hear him admit that all their shipments are claimed to be drug free but that personally, he didn't believe it. Apart from using one's own observation and perhaps asking to see the fish eat and to hold it for 24 hours w/deposit I don't think there is more than a customer can reasonably expect.

[TimT]

I guess I'll put my rambling two cents in too.

Just because a fish eats well and slowly starves does not necessarily mean cyanide poisoning. Fish, like humans, get roundworms and tapeworms.

There are many diseases; bacterial, viral, protozoan, cestodes, trematodes etc that will kill fish very quickly and mysteriously. The method used to acclimate a fish can also cause sudden mortality at a later time. ie float and dump. Also, just because the "tank parameters" happen to be OK the moment they were tested does not necessarily mean that they are Ok at night. ie dissolved Oxygen

One can not even be sure that the supposed target species are cyanide caught. It depends on the exporter, do they have their own collectors on salary or do they buy from the "free lancers" or middlemen. How experienced are their collectors?? The inexperienced ones will use cyanide while the experienced ones know they can catch more fish using nets, and they will be able to catch fish there year after year. Some of the older exporters also know this and don't allow their salaried collectors to use cyanide.

We want to know that the fish we buy are not cyanide caught fish from the Phillipinnes or Indonesia.

Naesco, are you saying ALL fish from the Philippines are cyanide caught?

On principle I do not import Tangs, Triggers, Angels, Butterflies from Indonesia, nor would I buy one imported from Indonesia, nor would I shop at a store that listed Indonesia as a source for them. I import those species from my supplier in the Philippines, I can be 100% sure that they are cyanide free.

While on the "showing customers the invoice" topic. If a customer asks me where a fish comes from I will tell them. Those coral beauty's are from the Philippines, those ones over there are from Tonga, that one is from Fiji etc. If they insist on seeing an invoice then they are calling me a liar and that will be the end of the discussion. If they doubt I would tell them the truth on origin should they not also doubt that I would tell them which fish are from what source??

Some of the very best Philippino netsman went to the Red Sea to train collectors there. I believe they are still there.

You can't purchase Goniapora spp. at J&L's but I'll bet you guys can find it if you want it.

Troy, please do not judge an animals ability to survive in captivity or its appropriateness for captivity based on whether an LFS can keep it alive.
There are many factors that can greatly affect an animals chances of survival in captivity, the majority of these happen before the animal even lands in Canada or Los Angeles.

Big Al's have a lab report stating that such and such fish were tested (I think it was clowns and if they need cyanide to catch clowns then we have some serious problems) and were certified cyanide free. The certificate is from back in '99 I think.

At least they went to the effort to get one. I think they are the only store that did that and I am sure they must have paid more for those fish.

Did ya know they use cyanide to catch wild bangaii's. Why not just throw a barrier net over the urchin and bangaii's. One would think it's pretty simple.

Cheers,
Tim

[Samw]

To everyone on the business side, thanks for expressing your open and candid answers. Up to this time, I could only speculate on the appropriateness of making invoice requests from a business. Now, it is fairly clear to me what kind of response to expect, which is reasonable to me.

[Van down by the river]

Great post Tim,

Okay my turn to rant.

A good aquarist uses his experience, common sense, and knowledge to judge a fish based on quality, health, appearance, behaviour, and feeding.

Truly, the invoice, time of day,colour of the aquarium, the dow jones, or wether the store clerk helping you has brushed his teeth this morning has little real relevance.

So I think we have established that it's GOOD to ask were they came from.
The invoice is NOT important.
To those that keep harping on the invoice I think it was quite clear and unanimous "NO" from the retailers.
(Tell you what, you send me a statement of your earnings,wage,debt load, credit report, and tax return.......and I'll send you some wholesalers lists......Let me guess it's none of my business right? Get the picture?)

Besides, many of you probably have cyanide caught fish swimming in your tank as we speak.

I'll also say the dirty words: By the way, Cyanide didn't kill all those fish!
Some of them, dare I say it, were your(the aquarists) fault!
Cyanide is a important issue, but it's often a scapegoat for bad husbandry.

Yes sometimes you do need to tell the customer were to go!
Yes I've done it. I've spent countless hours educating,chatting,learning,and discussing with wonderful customers and peers over the years (Wether they bought something or not). In fact It's one of the biggest benefits for me. So I have no shame in telling a jerk to get lost!

There are a 1000 things more important to look for in a store before the "show me your invoice or I'll go somwhere else approach".

Stores DON'T Pay $1.00 for Flame Angels!!!! or have a 400% markup on them. :shock:

What's wrong with posting a modified invoice? Don't you think they have 1000's of other things that would benefit their store better? Maintaining a fish store is no small feat.
Seeing the invoices won't change the hobby. You want to make a change?
Buy a membership in one of many fish/wildlife protection organizations for starters. Pay more for captive bred. etc

Think you got a cyanide caught fish? Get it tested, I believe the cost is $200 plus(2nd hand info)......... Or maybe that Regal Angel,Rock Beauty,etc wasn't really eating to start with....

naesco: nobody ever said that they wouldn't tell you where the fish came from.

BCOrchidGuy: No they don't drug fish to ship them!!
The colored water is usually just preventative antibiotics.
The only time I have heard of sedatives, is for very large fish being moved in public displays. It is risky to the animal/fish and is usually done by a Vet.

Nothing like a good debate to get everyone to participate!!!!!!

[MitchM]

Originally Posted by Samw

Up to this time, I could only speculate on the appropriateness of making invoice requests from a business. Now, it is fairly clear to me what kind of response to expect, which is reasonable to me.

That's the great thing about these BB's, isn't it?

My advice is to approach an LFS with the intent of establishing a relationship of mutual respect, not an "us vs. them" approach.
Instead of going in half-cocked like you're a holier-than-thou reefer, and you have just caught them at something bad, educate yourself around the issues and logistics involved in running an LFS, and don't complain about their prices!
I've found that good LFS's are more than willing to discuss issues around the industry in a civil manner.

Mitch

[Troy F]

Troy, please do not judge an animals ability to survive in captivity or its appropriateness for captivity based on whether an LFS can keep it alive.
There are many factors that can greatly affect an animals chances of survival in captivity, the majority of these happen before the animal even lands in Canada or Los Angeles.

Give me a break Tim, if the odd goniapora survives for a year or so in hobbyists' tank and an even fewer number survive longer than that we can probably assume they're better left in the ocean. I respect a retailer who know this. It's like pacific host anemones, once they're in a good tank their survival rate is fairly good. However, if the majority of them die in the store's tanks maybe they too should be left in the ocean. If the hobby can't survive doing what's right maybe there shouldn't be a hobby.

At least they went to the effort to get one. I think they are the only store that did that and I am sure they must have paid more for those fish.

Did ya know they use cyanide to catch wild bangaii's. Why not just throw a barrier net over the urchin and bangaii's. One would think it's pretty simple.

The point is that they did it a long time ago and it's more or less false advertising because it means nothing today. I'd rather know that with every shipment and pay a little more.

Honestly, I don't know why I'm arguing over invoices (I'm not actually). I've seen a few but I've never asked, nor would I and more or less for the reasons our hot-blooded retailers have expressed. I agree with whomever said, "if you can't trust them, don't shop there". I shop at retailers that I can trust. My points are more along the lines that we have to demand healthy, net caught fish. We should shop at stores that can tell us where they come from. Like I said earlier, if they're coming from a wholesaler and there's no way of telling where they came from; maybe we shouldn't be supporting that business. Someone else mentioned that the facilities are of equal importance and that is a great point too. What difference does it really make if "GIANT PET STORE" gets net caught fish if there staffs' husbandry skills are too poor to keep them healthy.

The truth is that the majority of hobbyists won't pay more for anything and that will be the bottom line for determining where fish come from.

[Troy F]

One last point (and this is a bit of back tracking, I'm arguing more for the sake of the argument) to the retailers who take such great offense at someone questioning them. You expect people to believe that you tell the truth because you say so and if they don't like it they can go **** up a rope, right? There are a thousand other industries out there that have honest people working and they have to provide certification proof in some way or another. How many of you retailers know your all of your customers and can vouch for their honesty. If I were to ask someone for documentation I assure you it wouldn't be because I don't like or trust you it's because I don't know you and don't want to have to spend all my time trying to figure out whether I do like you and trust you. Let's face it, there are retailers out there that are using the cheapest suppliers they can find and in effort to ease a concerned hobbyists mind, it may be of an advantage for you to provide such documentation.