GFI & storms

[mike31154]

Originally Posted by Doug

Alrighty. Took a couple quick pics of them. These are of course horizontal in the box.

I thought they were standard now, but have a hard time making believers.

Thanks for the photos. Looks like they're Cutler Hammer breakers. I have a Siemens breaker panel and after doing some reading on combination AFI GFI units was unable to find any Siemens devices. Looks like these combo breakers are still few and far between, not that readily available. BC code does require GFI and AFI devices on all new installations as well these days. Bedrooms and any other room that may be used as some sort of sleeping quarters must be AFI protected, bathrooms and circuits to do with water, GFI protected. During my search on the net, it looks like the US NEC (national electric code) is in the process of requiring AFI protection in virtually every room! A little overkill maybe, trying to protect people from p-poor wiring installations? Who knows. Might as well design the main house breaker as an AFI/GFI unit, although that will be tricky with two hot wires. Some congressman or senator must have a brother who's an electrical contractor...

[westom]

Originally Posted by mike31154

During my search on the net, it looks like the US NEC (national electric code) is in the process of requiring AFI protection in virtually every room! A little overkill maybe, trying to protect people from p-poor wiring installations?

AGFI is for fires. I have seen many. For example, she connected the Christmas tree. Saw a spark. In five minutes, the entire house was afire. They did not even have time to rescue any pets. That is why AGFI are required.

Another burned the entire second floor because a zip cord inside a lamp arced. In every case (and others) the AGFI would have prevented every fire.

Doug - many differences (variables) exist. For example, all appliances leak current. How much? Which one is leaking more? And which one leaks more current when humidity increases? I cannot answer you question due to woefully insufficient facts. To have an answer, you must provide numbers. And this from my previous post: newer GFCIs trip open on power loss whereas older ones did not.

[Doug]

Thanks guys. Yes, I fully aware of what the AFCI are for. Besides Mike, the pics were for Steve, who never understood what I was saying. Same as the last thread, where someone told me there was no such as thing.

A portion of my tank runs on that circuit but it wont fire halides. Fluorescence no problem but not anything with an igniter I guess.

[StirCrazy]

Originally Posted by Doug

Thanks guys. Yes, I fully aware of what the AFCI are for. Besides Mike, the pics were for Steve, who never understood what I was saying. Same as the last thread, where someone told me there was no such as thing.

A portion of my tank runs on that circuit but it wont fire halides. Fluorescence no problem but not anything with an igniter I guess.

didn't need pixcturees od the breakers, the explanation was good. I found the arc/gfi's from cuttler hammer. and no they are not common as cuttlerhammer is the only one on the market right now and almost any new pannel I see is seemins. I am onb hollidays right now this is the first time I have been able to get on. I would honestly just change your GFI outlet as it is probably a bit dammaged. and for the 14 bucks, what the heck.

Steve

[Greenmaster]

I don't think anyone else has said this but I feel this is one of the more important investments for a reef tank...(especially one that has thousands of dollars of livestock). I would suggest getting a UPS modifying it and adding Deep Cycle batteries so that it can last for 12 hours or so... just to run your pump and heaters so you don't lose your entire tank... the entire thing should cost less then $500 and it protects you from lots of different power shortage issues... including making sure that the pump is always getting constant "clean" power... and that helps with extending the life of the pump too.

Just my 2 cents.

[westom]

Originally Posted by Greenmaster

I don't think anyone else has said this but I feel this is one of the more important investments for a reef tank...(especially one that has thousands of dollars of livestock). I would suggest getting a UPS modifying it and adding Deep Cycle batteries so that it can last for 12 hours or so...

First you cannot use deep cycle batteries in interior environments. They can output dangerous gases.

Second, a typical UPS outputs power so 'dirty' as to harm small electric motors and power strip protector. Same electricity is ideal for routinely 'more robust' electronics. To obtain a UPS with sufficient clean power starts at $500 or $1000 - before violating UL safety ratings by adding external batteries. Or power those motors, etc from a DC power supply that would isolate DC motors, etc from AC mains by first converting AC to regulated DC power. But that means replacing AC motors with DC motors.

Options are available. But one should first learn some simple electrical concepts before changing things - ie externally attached batteries.

[Greenmaster]

Originally Posted by westom

First you cannot use deep cycle batteries in interior environments. They can output dangerous gases.

Second, a typical UPS outputs power so 'dirty' as to harm small electric motors and power strip protector. Same electricity is ideal for routinely 'more robust' electronics. To obtain a UPS with sufficient clean power starts at $500 or $1000 - before violating UL safety ratings by adding external batteries. Or power those motors, etc from a DC power supply that would isolate DC motors, etc from AC mains by first converting AC to regulated DC power. But that means replacing AC motors with DC motors.

Options are available. But one should first learn some simple electrical concepts before changing things - ie externally attached batteries.

You can get sealed batteries as well but I would still suggest putting them and the UPS outside in a dry, heated (more for winter and to help keep it dry) location not too far away. It can be bulky and not look that great.
... the idea of replacing the small 12v or 24v batteries that are in the UPS is so you have "sufficient clean power" I'm not sure what UPS your talking about but the ones I have looked at are good.
I didn't even hint at trying to do a DC motor...
Some things that most UPS do are:
When there is a surge in the power they will blow the surge protector and continue to supply the power (often beeping and a small LED flashes to tell you it has no power) then when you notice it you go hit the reset button and voila you have your power back from the wall and it slowly charges your batteries again.
When there is a lull it continues to provide power to the system to make it constant (AKA clean)
When I say that the UPS is clean I don't mean that it provides exceptional power regulation, all I am saying is that it is far superior to strait dirty power from the wall.
It would have prevented his GFI from going off as it would have supplied the power needed when the power "blinked" and there wouldn't have been the surge of power needed to start-up all the equipment that had shut off for a fraction of a second. Also I have heard that some chillers will be stuck in the on position after a Blink. Pumps not starting up at all...
The only problems I have heard of about DIY mods on a UPS is when they didn't do it right. So if you don't know what you are doing get someone who does to do it for you. Or "obtain a UPS with sufficient clean power" they "starts at $500 or $1000" I didn't look to see if they have "sufficient" power but even at that price tag they may lack a little in power. AKA only last a few hours instead of like 12-48 for the DIY depending on how many batteries you want. Also there are several different kinds of power storage other then Deep Cycle batteries but I found the Deep Cycle to be the cheapest way to go (cheap is a relative term).

Another thing that you (Doug) could do is have your power items on more separate GFI circuits and when they all power on at the same time in that manner it won't pop the GFI. Given the fact that you can't reproduce the problem I would say that you are quite close to the threshold and you could move one powerhead or heater and it "shouldn't" happen again... but no promises.

[mike31154]

The issue with most small UPS units (even if you use external batteries for more capacity) is that the inverter they use to convert the battery DC to AC for your equipment produces a 'modified' sine wave, somewhat chopped and analagous to a square wave. I think this is what Westom is referring to as not clean, or dirty power. This modified sine wave is hard on motors in particular, they may run, but it can be detrimental to their running life, depending on the quality of the motor. Things like heaters don't care if the sine wave is modified. As far as using deep cycle or other large lead acid batteries indoors, yes it is not advisable due to the fumes given off during charging, but if you set up proper ventilation, you can mitigate that problem. A search on solar or wind powered homes will provide plenty of info on folks using large banks of lead acid batteries to supplement their home power or run off the grid entirely.

If you want truly clean power to run your equipment during a power outage, invest in a true sine wave inverter (easily twice the price of most inverters available) powered by a deep cycle battery(ies) or a good quality generator. With a few extra components, relay, trickle charger, you can build a better UPS yourself.

[Greenmaster]

Originally Posted by mike31154

... If you want truly clean power to run your equipment during a power outage, invest in a true sine wave inverter (easily twice the price of most inverters available) powered by a deep cycle battery(ies) or a good quality generator. With a few extra components, relay, trickle charger, you can build a better ups yourself.

+1

[Doug]

I think I posted this somewhere in my thread. I do run two different circuits, one with the mentioned GFI and the other on the GFI/Arc Fault.

The problem GFI is on a circuit specifically installed for my aquarium and my 30g cube could not run close to the 15amps. Plus its split on the two as mentioned.

I think thats what I will do Steve. Thanks.