Convinced of a link between GFO and Cyano (and not the good kind)

[Myka]

Originally Posted by gregzz4

So, you're advocating using roughly 50mls of GFO in my 105 system, instead of the BRS recommended 225mls ?

Yes. I've had better results in the tank by using a lesser amount and changing more often.

I just looked at BRS, as I'm not familiar with their recommendations, and I see they want you to change it out every 4-8 weeks.

To compare my recommendation to BRS:

My recommendation is 1 tbsp (15 mL) per 30 gallons changed every 2-3 weeks. So my recommendation on 105 gallons works out to 140-210 mL in 8 weeks. I use RowaPhos strictly. I haven't used BRS HC GFO in several years.

BRS recommendation of 225 mL of the HC GFO changed every 4-8 weeks is 225 mL to 450 mL in 8 weeks.

There is almost no data available to compare the different brands of GFO, although I have found one comparing RowaPhos to PhosBan. http://www.theaquariumsolution.com/f...n%20report.pdf

Ultimately, my recommendation is based on using RowaPhos, and I am not sure if my recommendation can be directly compared.

[Myka]

In response to post #14 by Asylumdown. http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/sho...8&postcount=14

Some points to understand...

Test kits only read inorganic phosphate (PO4), and cyano can use both organic and inorganic phosphate. GFO only binds inorganic phosphate (PO4).

The red (or green or brown) stringy gunk we see in the system is not the cyanobacterium. That "gunk" is what the cyanobacterium exudes, and the bacterium is under that, and to a degree within it as well which is a method of spreading (aka hormongia aka motile reproductive filaments).

Cyanobacteria are biologically really cool - they don't follow the usual rules. Cyanobacteria are autotrophs, and the species that we see are also able to fix atmospheric nitrogen (which is really cool because cyanobacteria are aerobic and nitrogen fixation requires anaerobic conditions). Cyanobacteria are particularly good at surviving in both iron-limited and phosphate-limited environments.

Originally Posted by asylumdown

I agree there is cyanobacteria in the water column to some degree [...] not that it's picking a substrate bound state over a pelagic state (otherwise our tanks would look like a red tide).

Indeed the cyanobacteria we see in our tanks is benthic (clings to the surfaces). When I say the bacteria are in the water column, this is not something you can see. The hormongia are much different than pelagic cyanobacteria.

Originally Posted by asylumdown

If it's an "imbalance", what would constitute a "balanced" state? There's always going to be phosphate in the system somewhere. In older tanks, there's going to be a great deal of it in the rocks from a few different sources.

I think you're over-thinking my use of the word "balanced". The balance I'm referring to is simply that the water column contains roughly the same amount of phosphate as the substrate (sand/rock).



I think we are "arguing" different points. It appears to me that your side is that you think cyanobacteria are triggered by iron, where I believe cyanobacteria are triggered by phosphate imbalance within the system.

My own experiences (and yours also, it appears) have shown that adding a large amount of GFO to a tank can ultimately cause abundant growth of cyanobacteria. Seeing as cyanobacteria are not responsive to iron-limited nor phosphate-limited environments, then it must be something else.

[asylumdown]

In response to post #14 by Asylumdown. http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/sho...8&postcount=14

Some points to understand...

Test kits only read inorganic phosphate (PO4), and cyano can use both organic and inorganic phosphate. GFO only binds inorganic phosphate (PO4).

The red (or green or brown) stringy gunk we see in the system is not the cyanobacterium. That "gunk" is what the cyanobacterium exudes, and the bacterium is under that, and to a degree within it as well which is a method of spreading (aka hormongia aka motile reproductive filaments).

At least in the case of the cyano we deal with, no, that's not the case. I can post some pics of what the red slime from my tank looks like under my microscope when I'm back at a real computer, but that red "slime" is made up of hundreds of billions of strands of long cyanobacterial filaments (most likely from genus Oscillatoria). The slime is the cyano. Within that matrix there are also several species of diatom, a couple microscopic worms, lots of heterotrophic and chemo-autotrophic bacteria, and dinoflagellates, but the aggregate thing that you see - the red slime - gets its colour and texture from the cyanobacterial filaments that make up the scaffold that all those other micro critters live within.

That red slime isn't just cyano, it's an entire self contained microscopic ecosystem.

Cyanobacteria are biologically really cool - they don't follow the usual rules. Cyanobacteria are autotrophs, and the species that we see are also able to fix atmospheric nitrogen (which is really cool because cyanobacteria are aerobic and nitrogen fixation requires anaerobic conditions). Cyanobacteria are particularly good at surviving in both iron-limited and phosphate-limited environments.

They are cool, I will agree with that. The exact nitrogen fixing capacity of the kinds of cyano we deal with (as I said, likely Oscillatoria) is still being debated, as they lack heterocysts (the structure all other cyano species use to do it), but they seem to have evolved their own structures for accomplishing the same goal. And yes, it's a highly oxygen sensitive process, too much O2 and the enzyme responsible (I think nitrogenase) breaks down. But yes to all of what you said, it's why I think iron from gfo drives its presence in a tank. If you're good at scavenging something from an environment that is usually available in limited supply, you've got all the ingredients you need to become totally dominant when those nutrients are provided in excess.

Cyano is also likely uniquely adapted to using the kind of iron found in GFO compared to all the other organisms in your tank. They emit organic molecules called siderophores that specifically react with inorganic, oxidized forms of iron and turn it in to something they can easily absorb. This makes then capable of living in iron limited environments. It makes them excellent at living in iron rich environments.

Indeed the cyanobacteria we see in our tanks is benthic (clings to the surfaces). When I say the bacteria are in the water column, this is not something you can see. The hormongia are much different than pelagic cyanobacteria.

Right, the point I was trying to make is that there's no significant growth of cyanobacteria in the water column. Any cyano that is in the water column is a fleeting transitory stage as hormongia get blown from point a to point b. The amount of hormongia in the water will be entirely dependent on the amount you have growing on the rocks (just like the amount of dust in the air is directly related to the amount of dust being stirred up from the ground). You'll never have a scenario where there's lots in the water but little to none on the rocks because of some phosphate "balance". Not in an established tank with an effective protein skimmer anyway. If there was significant cyanobacterial growth happening in the water column, it would be a different genus from the slime you see on the rocks altogether, and you'd see it. Your tank water would be cloudy and tinted red or green.

I think you're over-thinking my use of the word "balanced". The balance I'm referring to is simply that the water column contains roughly the same amount of phosphate as the substrate (sand/rock).

I'm saying it doesn't matter if they have the same concentration or not (and they never will, fwiw). If the water has a high concentration, it has access to easily available P. If the water has a low concentration and it's getting it from the rocks, it still has easy access to excess P. Cyano doesn't care about the balance, it cares about whether the nutrients it needs are available or not. Reducing the concentration of phosphate in the water column does not somehow make phosphate more available.

If you have high phosphate in the water and no cyano growing either:
1. You don't have cyano present
2. Something is effectively predating the cyano
Or 3. Some other nutrient or environmental condition is limiting its growth.

I think we are "arguing" different points. It appears to me that your side is that you think cyanobacteria are triggered by iron, where I believe cyanobacteria are triggered by phosphate imbalance within the system.

My argument is that I don't think the idea of a phosphate "balance", in this scenario, is not a real thing. Nutrient balances in nature and how they influence a competitive regime are a thing, but unless you've got a massive refugium growing tons and tons of macro, there's not really anything in a tank to compete with an organism as fast growing and aggressive as cyano. Low P in the water, high p in the rocks, or high P in the water, high P in the rocks - cyanobacteria doesn't care. If it's in a form or location that it can access, it will use it. Being triggered by rapidly lowering P in the water would require cyanobacteria to have been politely ignoring the cheapest, easiest to get at, most readily available form phosphorous we know of.

Given how little P it needs relative to N and C, and how good it is at scavenging it from low P environments, and that (as you mentioned) cyanobacteria can use forms of phosphate not readily scrubbed by GFO, it's far more likely that no reactor you could buy has the adsorbing capacity to reduce phosphorous levels in your tank to the point where it would be limiting to Cyanobacteria. All your corals would die if you did. In the rocks or otherwise.

What you are supplying, however, is large quantities of an atom that is differentially vital to Cyanobacteria for survival; that isn't regularly dosed by most people; is found only in trace amounts in foods and most salt mixes; and is in a form that organisms other than cyanobacteria will probably have a hard time using.

My own experiences (and yours also, it appears) have shown that adding a large amount of GFO to a tank can ultimately cause abundant growth of cyanobacteria. Seeing as cyanobacteria are not responsive to iron-limited nor phosphate-limited environments, then it must be something else.

It's not that they're not responsive to low iron/low phosphate environments. It's that they're adapted to surviving in them. Take an organism adapted to surviving in an environment where some critical nutrient is limited and provide that nutrient in excess, you get steroid-like growth.

[Myka]

I'm curious how you have come to the conclusion that the cyano in our tank is likely Oscillatoria? Is that your own ID from your microscope or are you reading this in your research?

Originally Posted by asylumdown

Take an organism adapted to surviving in an environment where some critical nutrient is limited and provide that nutrient in excess, you get steroid-like growth.

I see your point, and I understand your observations. I don't think your theory of steroid growth is always true though. I could think of a million examples, but the simplest one I can think of off the top of my head is sunlight for photosynthesis. Too much light can actually cause photoinhibition. So too much of a good thing isn't always better.

I think the ideas are interesting, but I also think there is more to it. I don't think it is as simple as adding iron via GFO. There are too many instances in my mind where cyanobacteria have popped up and it would be tough to blame it on iron. It makes me think about what the cause may be in those instances. Since cyanobacteria are such amazing critters I imagine there are many situations that could cause the growth. I'm also sure I've seen at least a dozen different species of cyanobacteria in saltwater systems.

I like this discussion though. It is discussions like these that get us thinking in new ways and solve old problems with new ideas.

[asylumdown]

Yes, I'm definitely over simplifying it, as cyano has been a problem for as long as people have been keeping salt water tanks. In nature there's probably lots of cases where the nutrients needed for it to grow are present but it still doesn't, so there's a lot of complicated interactions going on. One paper I read even hypothesized background levels of hydrogen peroxide, which can naturally reach as high as 0.36 ppm in some parts of the ocean, might inhibit huge amounts of cyano bacterial growth (reactive oxygen is particularly deadly to cyano's photosynthetic structures).

You also have predators that we probably don't keep in tanks, bioturbation on a much larger scale, stronger wave action, and more things to compete with it.

I'm sure we could also find lots of tanks that deal with cyano that don't use gfo.

But, when you've got it, or are fighting it, I think it's worth considering that what has been long touted as a cure might in fact be part of the problem if gfo and low tested phosphate isn't slowing it down at all. There's good, supported science to suggest a link, and a long evolutionary history that makes cyano uniquely adapted to turning your best tools against you. In researching some background for this thread I even found an article where they assessed how good glucose and fructose were at making different species of oscillatoria grow (sad news, sugar dosers).

Fwiw, I'm on day three of phozdown dosing and I'm either wishfully seeing things, or my cyano population is down by 25%

[asylumdown]

Originally Posted by Myka

I'm curious how you have come to the conclusion that the cyano in our tank is likely Oscillatoria? Is that your own ID from your microscope or are you reading this in your research?

oops, missed that. What I get for typing on an iPhone all day. I was curious about it because there's so many species out there so I started looking in to cyano taxonomy. The Smithsonian Tropical Research Center maintains a great site with pictures of different cyano species in the wild, and Berkley also maintains a pretty good (if unsophisticated) site on cyanobacteria as well. The different genera are pretty distinctive in their behaviour, morphology, and appearance. Oscillatoria is the only genus that fits the bill as a group. It's the only one that forms mats of slimy 'cyano' like substrate coating goos in tropical marine environments. You can look at a bunch of pictures here: http://biogeodb.stri.si.edu/pacifica...lue/flocculent

Going beyond genus to species would take a microscope way better than mine, and even people who are experts on this as a career never seem to agree. This is what it looks like under my super crappy microscope (it's a video so you need to click on it):



That magnification wasn't high enough to see the heterotrophic and chemoautotrophic bacteria that live in association with the cyano mat, but you can see the super cool stretched out diamond shaped diatoms and a couple of the watermelon seed shaped dinoflagellates that live in association with the film. It's called "Oscillatoria" because the filaments re-orient themselves by oscillating back and forth until they are positioned as best as possible to receive the light, which is why the strands look like they're vibrating. I think it might be part of why cyano mats seem to shrink at night, the entire colony can deflate at night, then puff up over the course of the day as individual filaments stretch out to try and get the most light.

[asylumdown]

FWIW, based on those pictures, O. margaritifera, O. okenii, and O. subsalsa are great matches for the kinds we typically do battle with.

[Skim]

Well just thought I would put my 2 cents in. I had Cyno start to appear and this is what worked for me. Pull the GFO and GAC get some Seachem Purigen like 1L and pick up a few of the Seachem " The Bag" works perfect for the Media as it is fine. You can put it in the sump or better would be a small Canister or if you have an AquaClear hang it on the back or side. I did this and within the first day you could see the Cyno start to disappear and your water will sparkle. This stuff lasts quite a while and can be regenerated. It rapidly removes Organics from the water.
One other thing maybe I missed it but is your skimmer working as it should?
The other thing maybe lights old tubes or bulbs if you are use them.
Give the Purigen a try, its simple safe.
The other thing I just thought of that seem to help also was Brightwell Aquatics-Microbacter 7, with a large tank you may need to get the 2L bottle.

Good luck.
All the best.

Mike
P.S one other thing you can try if you use the Purigen is cut back the lighting time or shut them off for 2 to 3 days. That should get ride of the stuff real fast.

[gregzz4]

Originally Posted by Myka

Yes. I've had better results in the tank by using a lesser amount and changing more often....

Thanks Mindy ( I missed your post )

I've been using 225ml and changing it every 2 weeks
I'll try cutting it in half to start with and see what happens with my PO4 readings/algae issues

If all is good I'll keep cutting it back to a point where I know what amount to use every 2 weeks