Why balling properly is so important

[mrhasan]

Originally Posted by Aqua-Digital

LOL yes sorry bad typo thanks for correcting that. My bad modified to save a reef central back lash

Now...new era marine grazer is not a questionable product right Michael? Then why can't I find it anywhere in Calgary!!!!!!!!!

Sorry to highjack

[Aqua-Digital]

So to summerize before this all falls apart.

Hans werner balling developed a system that keeps your system in check by adding in balance all the required minerals to your system.

Just as with 2 part and 3 part Han's system also raises salinity but unlike 2-3 part it is raising it in balance meaning the remaining sodium chloride left behind that the corals do not consume is balanced with the part C + trace elements.

The left over sodium chloride in the balling system plus part C with the trace elements = natural sea water

The left over sodium chloride in 2-3 part does not, of if you wish to believe it comes with some trace elements, then more scary its adding things you have no clue of what or what amount.

[Aqua-Digital]

Originally Posted by mrhasan

Now...new era marine grazer is not a questionable product right Michael? Then why can't I find it anywhere in Calgary!!!!!!!!!

Sorry to highjack

???? everyone should have it, I know stores this time of year cut back on perishable dry goods as sales are typically lower, but we just shipped a large amount to wais. he will have it mid next week (due to canada day)

also concepts are doing an order get dave to replenish if out.

Pisces pets has it also

[reefwars]

Originally Posted by Aqua-Digital

LOL yes sorry bad typo thanks for correcting that. My bad modified to save a reef central back lash

lol

[Aqua-Digital]

Just want too clarify another point also when I talk about NACL I am talking about NACL FREE salt.

Of course NACL is salt

Part C is NACL "FREE"

You got me going back checking my typos now before the RC crew go picking up on them!

Part C is everything you find in reef salt minus the salt, NACL FREE PART C are your balancing elements that is added to your system which binds to the free swimming sodium chloride making balanced "reef salt" in effect

[reefwars]

Originally Posted by Aqua-Digital

Just want too clarify another point also when I talk about NACL I am talking about NACL FREE salt.

Of course NACL is salt

Part C is NACL "FREE"

You got me going back checking my typos now before the RC crew go picking up on them!

Part C is everything you find in reef salt minus the salt, NACL FREE PART C are your balancing elements that is added to your system which binds to the free swimming sodium chloride making balanced "reef salt" in effect

hope it wasnt out of place but i was just interested to see what the argument is from the other side of things , as hobbyist we all have what we think works and i know that TM is a trusted name in the game but as someone who uses randys recipe i wanted to see his thoughts on this thread were.

i would like to see claude, hans and randy having a coffee one day and be sitting at the table behind spying in lol

[Aqua-Digital]

another important point that was highlighted (and this is very valid question)

how do we know how many trace elements our tanks need? every tank is different

the question is probably the most important.

the answer also is important - WE DONT KNOW! thats why the original balling system ONLY adds what you find in reef salt, so no different than doing a water change.

where as 2 part 3 part leaves out a huge chunk of that process round abouts we go "imbalance"

[Aqua-Digital]

Originally Posted by reefwars

hope it wasnt out of place but i was just interested to see what the argument is from the other side of things , as hobbyist we all have what we think works and i know that TM is a trusted name in the game but as someone who uses randys recipe i wanted to see his thoughts on this thread were.

i would like to see claude, hans and randy having a coffee one day and be sitting at the table behind spying in lol

No not at all but you wont get much love from them in regards to a balanced argument.

I will try and sit on the fence as I have said you dont need to stop using the 2 elements you already are, if you are happy with the brand you use carry on. The difference is the need for balancing the left over sodium chloride. There seems to be this long standing in ground in granite that it does not matter, and to be honest nobody has done many published studies in its effects. The science is there the chemistry is there, hans goes into a lot more detail in regards to the effects having free floating sodium chloride has on both growth and colour of corals, (something to do with stopping further absorption of chloride and carbonates as they have nothing left to bind to) What marine biology and marine chemistry tells us is you have a greater fighting chance of success if you follow what nature requires. Cutting corners I just cant believe in when there is no real point in doing so.

So far the arguments on RC have not impressed me or given any real assurance why 2 part is cool. Even stating that they add an unkown quantity of trace elements should be a big red flag.

But I am not going to get drawn into the gurus that host the chemistry forum on RC, its never a wise battle, however I will happily put facts here that I have learned from both Tropic marin and Hans directly.

TM Hans, RF and Claude have got together I believe many times at conferences.

I have a mass of respect for RHF actually, his knowledge is amazing, I just cant agree with the 2-3 part concept thats all, its missing chunks of marine chemistry as Hans showed many years ago now that spawned all the off shoots such as two part. My personal thoughts are those off shoots came from the desire for DIY but had no access to the balanced NACL free trace elements, so it was simply omitted and the became popular and the science got left behind.

TM took many years in commercializing Hans system and now the inventor is playing catch up and fighting against the spawn of his own system. People do forget where 2 part came from

[Aqua-Digital]

I just read on the RC reply thread that the assumption is 2 part "can have" the same elements that is in true balling.

This is where 2 part/ 3 part fall apart as there is no assurance to what you are dosing, there is "an assumption" its also a balanced system, BUT there is nobody to stand behind the assumed elements.

Anyway I think this could go epic if I dont close this so i will close with my personal thoughts which kind of already state what i said before.

This is my belief of history I write this for fun and just to put some light hearted thought into the whole debate.

Hans developed a marine chemist way of adding supplements in a balanced way

The desire for DIY took hold and the only two elements freely available were calcium and sodium bicarb.

NACL free with the trace elements Hans-Werner originally developed was forgotten as its not available in DIY format.

DIY became popular as its cheap, nobody for years questioned this too loudly.

Hans-Werner probably through frustration decided to commercialize his scientific system and is now fighting against the spawn of his orginal system which has been cut back to the bare bones employing often ungraded salt and unknown quantities iif any of minerals.

I will leave you the educated hobbyist to decide which system them feel is best for them.

My wife also wants to see my tonight not stuck to the PC. if you have any questions either email or call me you know I am always available to everyone

Thank you to everyone for listening, please make your own thoughts as what is best for you.

[ReEf BoSs]

Originally Posted by Aqua-Digital

this is the biggest trap people seem to fall into. If you change 20% of the water you only change 20% if the imbalance, leaving 80% unbalanced.

this is why it can take up to 8 weeks to stabilizes a system that switches to the correct balling method

You can argue with science the facts are so simple. 2 part and 3 part that does not employ NACL with all the 70 trace elements WILL cause an imbalance, whether you wish to believe true science or not is not my concern. However it goes back to the whole point of keeping corals and a marine system and that is to replicate nature,. By doing 2 part, balling light or however you wish to name it, you are trying to beat nature to save a few dollars but happy to throw expensive corals into that imbalanced environment.

Hans werner balling put his name to a system that replicates nature, why then try and cut it back and turn it into something its not or even try and disprove simple science?

Now thats where I struggle to understand the logic

You may have good results right now but have you see what results you would get doing it properly, thats a very valid question also

I didnt watch the video but how do you get a math equation that equals after one week the system is imbalanced and 20 percent water changes could not fix it, what about 30,40,90 there would be an amount for each system that would balance would there not be? Im not against it i also would rather dose than do a 90 percent water change Ew but without testing its all guessing no ?