Sad news: baby elephant has died.

[Murminator]

Think I should enter this as my avatar?

[Quinn]

Originally Posted by StirCrazy

thats a Pablo's dog.

Pavlov.

So what separates us from the other animals? We thought it was tool use, then Goodall and others found out otherwise. Is it self-awareness? Good research suggests that many animals know they're looking at themselves when you put a mirror in front of them, and not another individual. Is it the ability to feel compassion? In one particular species of monkey, if you set up an experiment so that everytime one individual presses a button to get a piece of food, it electrocutes another individual in its line of sight, the first animal will quickly stop pressing the button and come close to starvation, apparently to avoid causing harm to its counterpart. Based on what humans value, we certainly are more successful than other primates. However, to say we are somehow fundamentally different than any other animal is pre-Darwin religious drivel.

Instinct is "a behaviour pattern that appears in fully functional form the first time it is performed, even though the animal may have no previous experience with the cues that elicit the behaviour." They are coded for genetically, and most biologists/animal behaviourists accept that behaviour is the result of both genetics and modeling. Salmon know to swim back to where they were born to spawn. But even organisms as simple as wasps can learn that they've made a mistake when they attempt to mate with an orchid for the first time.

Humans have large brains, and the current hypothesis for this is that we evolved them in order to function in complex social environments where relationships with our peers are very different from individual to individual. But I doubt any of us could remember the location of 1000+ seeds over the winter like some birds. So again, what is success in the grand scheme of things?

I'm not a "tree hugger". But seeing ourselves as superior to other animals is a quaint notion that has long been abandoned in scientific circles (since Victorian times). We don't "own" anything on this planet.

[AJ_77]

Originally Posted by teevee

However, to say we are somehow fundamentally different than any other animal is pre-Darwin religious drivel.

Thanks, Quinn. Merry Christmas to you, too.

That comment puts you into the Angry Young Man category. Let's talk again in 10 years, OK?

[Quinn]

Pre-Darwin, as in, not modern day, tolerant religious traditions. I am not implying there is a problem with religion as a whole.

[G1GY]

It's realy sad to hear about the death of the baby elephant, but equally sad to see animal rights activists come out of the woodwork and say "See! I told you so! You shouldn't breed these animals in capitivity!".

These same retards wouldn't bat an eye at what's happening to people in Africa every day, but ride a bull in a rodeo, eat a steak or wear a leather jacket and they'll go to the end of the earth to stop it.

If not for captive breeding programs around the world, there would probably be many animals gone already. In many countries the animals that are kept and bred are food, clothing and trophie items in their native habitat. Endangered or not!

I think all the tree hugging PETA pukes should get back to their plant eating place at the bottom of the food chain!

[Cap'n]

Originally Posted by StirCrazy

thats a Pablo's dog. it is repetitive conditioning, not true learning. there are some animals that can do true learning but they do not posses rational thought and a self awareness.

Steve

That's Pavlov BTW, but repetetive conditioning is not was I was describing anyway. There are many instances of animals learning new methods of survival which they have discovered through trial and error, just like people do. Both lower and higher forms of life do this.

A couple examples from the primates:

A boy once fell into a gorilla enclosure and was knocked unconscious, I believe it was in L.A. The crowd panicked, screaming for help, wondering if the powerful animals would harm the child. A female gorilla who had recently lost her baby rushed over to the boy and hunched over him, baring her teeth at the other gorillas keeping them away. She them picked the boy up and carried him over to the door where the zoo-keepers enter to feed the primates and clean the cage. She then moved a short distance away, again keeping the other gorillas away until someone came in and took the boy away to safety. This showed learned behaviour which was not taught, advanced problem solving and empathy of another being.

Koko, http://www.koko.org/# the famous signing gorilla, has a vocabulary of over 1000 words in American Sign Language (ASL) and can understand over 2000 spoken English words, responding in ASL. She calls herself by her name, tells people she calls "friends" how she is feeling, describing a full range of emotions ranging from happy, sad, to embarrassment. She desired a pet and was given a kitten she named Ball. She now wants to have children and says she will teach them sign language. I find it hard to disagree that Koko has self awareness.

I do believe that humans have evolved in many ways beyond that which other animals have, that is beyond question. But when it comes to processes as simple as knowing who they are and what they are doing I believe there are many other species alive that have this ability. To return to the origin of this thread let's consider the mourning of the passing of a member of an elephant herd. The other members of the herd will spend days with the dying and the deceased, caressing the body, bellowing mournful cries. They will go without food and water just to be with their longtime companion. Those especially close to the deceased will often spend extra time with the body after the rest of the herd decides to move on. This process will even be repeated when the herd comes upon the bones of those they once knew. Pretty advance for "just an animal."

[Cap'n]

oops, missed a few posts while I was typing...

[Cap'n]

Originally Posted by Buk_A_neer

Because we can " decide " to invent things we became special ... when we could rationalize and expand our minds past a primate we became " special "

Oh No ... I have upset another " tree-hugger "

As Quinn has stated chimpanzees invent and use tools.
Other animals can rationalize and there are probably marine mammals with more expansive minds than primates. Humans definately have developed an advantage over the other residents of the planet but I cannot agree that we have a certain something that makes us more important, special or significant than others.

I am not and was not upset. Just asking some questions and enjoying the conversation. The "tree-hugger" term is being thrown around quite loosely here with a lot of generalizations. I fail to see how someone like myself can be labelled as such just because I have studied and have an understanding of animal behaviour anyway. Does that by default make you, BukAneer, an "ignorant redneck"? I think not.

[albert_dao]

Originally Posted by CptCleverer

As Quinn has stated chimpanzees invent and use tools.
Other animals can rationalize and there are probably marine mammals with more expansive minds than primates. Humans definately have developed an advantage over the other residents of the planet but I cannot agree that we have a certain something that makes us more important, special or significant than others.

I am not and was not upset. Just asking some questions and enjoying the conversation. The "tree-hugger" term is being thrown around quite loosely here with a lot of generalizations. I fail to see how someone like myself can be labelled as such just because I have studied and have an understanding of animal behaviour anyway. Does that by default make you, BukAneer, an "ignorant redneck"? I think not.

On that note, there is anecdotal evidence (har har) that suggest that dolphins may have even greater cognitive prowess then humans!

To stick with the topic of this thread, I am very sad that the baby elephant has died.

To continue on with the meat of this thread.... I havent read every word posted but have disagreed greatly with the majority of what has been posted..... You have voiced your opinions and they are yours to voice, on my end personally, you can throw all that evolution crap out the window! I think Darwin was a very stupid man, he went all over the world and saw all nature had to offer in all its intricate detail, and said, "evolution is the answer" What a Moron!!! I love and hate science, if you study science and cant figure out that a greater being "God" created everything, you are foolish in my eyes. Science proves gods existence and disproves evolution. There is no proof of evoloution, only speculation, there has been no species found in the midst of an evolutionary change. Have you ever looked at the supposed prehistoric human skulls that they found, they are 2 colours, 1 colour is actual bone that they found(very small skull area), then the other colour is what forms the whole shape of the monkey man skulls. And then they find hair on the skull, so prehistoric man is hairy all over, but they only found hair on the top of the skull, go figure??? I cant fathome how a person can study the complexity of just the small marine life enviroment that we try to sustain in our tanks and not belive that god created that life... If I had a big steel box and filled it with every seperate part of a car and shook it for a million years, do you think when I opened the box I would have a running perfectly torqued to spec car...???? I sure dont think so, yet the odds of a rock hitting earth and life starting, or you and myself comming from some sea goo are sooooo much higher..... many wont agree with my post, fair enough.....
In the bible God told us that we would be above all his other creations on earth, monkey is not my equal.....