Wild Seahorses @ J&L??!!

[Quinn]

MAC.

We already had a good discussion about the wholesalers and retailers and respect from us hobbyists. It had something to do with profits versus sustainability and livestock health...

Alot of people seem to make alot of comments that are based on little first hand knowledge, alot of "fancy" talk if you ask me.....

[Quinn]

Where's the fancy talk.

I did some quick research and found that while generally seahorses are not considered to be endangered, their numbers are declining rapidly. Several species are in fact on the Red List. As noted previously, the majority of these are used in traditional medicines (hey another good use for cloning). The Philippines has the most money invested in the seahorse trade - and we all know where MAC does most of its work in SE Asia... this is an animal that is relatively easy to breed in captivity. There is no need to import them from the wild, especially with the low success rates I would expect most seahorse keepers experience.

Your very own UBC is part of http://www.projectseahorse.org, as is Guylian, one of the world's largest and most well-known chocolate manufacturers - looks like only those crazy greens are in on this one eh? Maybe you're the one with "little knowledge", Kyle.

[StirCrazy]

Originally Posted by naesco

If they are in fact wild, J&L is being totally irresponsible and we all need to let them know that.
Next time they will think twice about ordering wild.

ya lets get them

[StirCrazy]

Originally Posted by saltcreep

Estimates indicate that about 2% of all wild collected seahorses are destined for the aquarium trade...the balance is for "traditional chinese medicine".

if this is infact a true estimate then my position would be that the hobby is having no impact on the population whats so ever and that maybe we should be banning the chineese from harvisting them.

Steve

[Beverly]

Originally Posted by teevee

Your very own UBC is part of http://www.projectseahorse.org, as is Guylian, one of the world's largest and most well-known chocolate manufacturers - looks like only those crazy greens are in on this one eh?

On the sh.org board, very little positive is said about Project Seahorse. They are one of the most influential bodies in the Cites evaluation of seahorses, yet they are not quite as knowledgeable as they claim to be.

One of the Cites proposals they have made is to make it illegal to catch SHs under 4", regardless of a particular species adult size. Dwarf SHs, for example, are only an inch in length at adult size, yet they are not endangered. The SHs I keep, H. whitei, only grow to 4" in length, so this species would not be available for collection at all, and as far as I know they are not endangered. There are other a few other species whose adult size is 4" or under and all of them would be exempt from collection.

Not that I am in favour of mass collection of wild seahorses at all. But if there are to be breeding programs around the world to lessen the impact of SHs used for TCM and of SHs for the aquarium trade, there must be some wild collection at various points to ensure genetic variation in the captive bred animals, especially for those in the aquarium trade.

JMO.

[saltcreep]

There is still going to be wild harvest of horses even after CITES listing takes affect in May. Harvest numbers will be controlled by quotas. Even after May WC horses should still be available.

The point I was trying to make WRT to MAC, was that, why should we jump to conclusions and condemn a store for having these animals for sale. Any item that is harvested in a sustainable manner should be okay for sale, in simplistic terms. Maybe these horses came from a certified supplier and were certified through their facility. Shouldn't be a problem to me.

[Beverly]

Originally Posted by saltcreep

Any item that is harvested in a sustainable manner should be okay for sale, in simplistic terms. Maybe these horses came from a certified supplier and were certified through their facility. Shouldn't be a problem to me.

One of the problems of keeping wild caught SHs is that they are hard to feed. Initially, they need live food which may not be readily available to many hobbiests. Brine shrimp, while easy to cultivate at home, are not a nutritious meal for SHs. Pods that have been given the opportunity to grow in a refug may be good for the short term, but WC SHs, who are great if slow-moving hunters, will quickly consume them.

Training WC SHs to accept dead food, such as mysis and PE mysis in particular which is highest in HUFAs, is hugely time consuming and often frustrating. Not every hobbiest will have the patience or perhaps even the knowledge to know how to train WCs to eat dead foods.

Unfortunately, too, WC SHs can come with difficult to diagnose health problems.

Ultimately, both lack of proper feeding and inability to treat possible illness can easily lead to the death of WC SHs for many new hobbiests.

I know many of us have inadvertently killed marine fish through ignorance. I know I have and that sucks to me SHs are more specific in their requirements than, say, clownfish or even angelfish, therefore much more thought must be put into the acquisition of WC SHs than with "normal" marine fish, or with CB SHs that are already trained to eat dead foods.

IMO, wild caught seahorses should be left to those who have studied in great detail the care of the species they intend to keep and be well prepared for difficulties in caring for them.

Originally Posted by teevee

Where's the fancy talk.

Please re-read my original comment, and then read your opening comment right below it....
thats what Im talking about, I am very well aware of the things going on in this industry as is Saltcreep, you on the other hand, as you have stated, have done some "quick" research and have jumped to conclusions without knowing the whole picture(this is done very frequently on boards such as this). I wouldnt expect you to know everything that goes on in this industry as you are a hobbiest, not dealing with the business end. Being in the business end I make a point of knowing as much as I can about whats going on in this industry, you could say it is detrimental for me to do so.... Instead of jumping into something that you dont have the whole picture of, it would be a good idea to ask someone that does know the whole picture as Saltcreep does, he hasnt done some quick reasearch, he has dedicated a large portion of his life to know what is going on, he is "in the know" Reading a few pages on the internet does not put you in the know. Please dont take offense as I think it is good that hobbiests like you are concerned about the welfare of our beloved marine life, but I think it would be wise to ask someone in the know, before jumping to conclusions... Look at Saltcreeps comments, he knows what he is talking about, Im not saying that you dont, Im saying people are making comments and passing acusations without haveing the whole picture. And Steve, what you said would be a dream come true, especially since the seahorses that are used in TCM have no medicinal value, traditional hokus pokus...
And naesco, I think asking questions before making acusations would be of great benifit to gain a better understanding of the whole picture, if you had the whole picture you would realize that sustainable harvesting of wildcaught marine life is a very good thing for this hobby, and for the enviroment. And I think that the selling of WC seahorses collected in a sustainable way should be handled with care, I feel it is the stores and the hobbiests responsibility to make sure they are able to be cared for in the best manner possible, unfortunatly this isnt always the case....

[saltcreep]

Ah Beverly, the whole point of this thread was the issue of a LFS having WC horses for sale. I am trying to play devil's advocate with this. I have suggested that if the collection is "sustainable" what is the problem. People seem to light their hair on fire (no I'm not suggesting you are) with issues such as these. This issue seems to revolve back to an unsuitable species list (USL).

After a late night discussion (and many beverages) with two of the owners of the larger wholesale companies on the US, they started to change my mind on this subject. If collection is done, for any species of fish or invert, in a sustainable method (stress the sustainable) does it matter if those species die in a short time in an aquarium? After all, with sustainable collection, the wild populations would support this collection. Don't forget a great majority of all collected fish die even before they reach your home.

Now again, the point I was making...why condemn a store for having an item, nevermind care requirements, without knowing how it was collected?