Brodeur/Kipper/Luongo Revisited - Page 2

Veng68 · #11 01-17-2010, 02:19 PM

Both good goalies........ but only history will tell who is better.

So far Kipper probably has an edge since he's been to a Stanley Cup Final and a has a Vezina.

Goalie World Magazine has Luongo as a better goalie over the last 5 years (using their rating system).

Being a Canucks fan........ it only matters to me that we get into the playoffs (that includes all Canadian Teams) and that Lu gives us a chance at the Cup. He's only been through to the second round twice but he's only been in the playoffs twice.

So we shall see at the end of this season who is the better goalie (at least for this year).

Cheers,
Vic

StirCrazy · #12 01-17-2010, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pelle31

Are you a Canucks fan? This statement almost made me pee my pants " most of the shots kipper faces are not that hard to stop" I don't know if you watch any of the Flames games but its been Kipper that has kept the Flames in alot of games this year. Yea we have a pretty decent "D" but they still have their breakdowns.

nope thing luongo is having a bad year compared to last also. My team doesn't have a starting goalie right now.

Kipper has kept the team in stopping a lot of shots that are where people who play goal concider them the easier shots to stop. doesn't mean they all get stopped but there are areas where a goalie who rather have shots taken from because the angles make it a little easier to fill up the net. not to say he hasn't made some nice clutch saves but overall his D have been doing there job well.

I have never liked kipper though so take from it what you will. he has ben getting better but he is a hot/cold goalie and used to be very inconsistant.

Steve

StirCrazy · #13 01-17-2010, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wayner

If it wasn't for Kipper, Flames would be dead last , as far as having a really good defense core, makes me laugh, Kippers looking at 40 shots a game on most nights and stnds on his head.

that makes me laugh.. using shots on net is a stupid statistic, unless you can break down where thoes shots were from by percentage.

I play goalie for a old timers league and trust me, I would love to have 50 shots from the outside of the circle over 15 from in front. the biggest job of the defence is to try push the guys to the outside where statisticly it is much easier to stop the shot, and to prevent a pass preventing one timmers or tip ins on the opposit side. like I tell my guys, if the other team wants to come in on the boards and shoot from the side. they can do that all day for all I care.

Steve

GreenSpottedPuffer · #14 01-18-2010, 03:24 AM

Anyone who has actually played the game will not be too interested in shot totals. I have never played goal but did play junior b which is not exactly the highest level of hockey but you still have to have good fundamentals to get there. One of those fundamentals you learn (back in bantam hockey probably) is to keep the shots to the outside and let the goalie see them. If we did this, our coach wouldn't care how many shots we allowed.

Shot totals are very misleading. Many good teams will allow 40 shots a game, take 20-25 and win most nights. I can remember way too many games where the canucks out shoot the other teams and loose.

You should be proud of your team but there is really no point in trying to make something out of nothing. No one is going to deny Kipper is a good goalie but trying to say he is as good as Luongo or Brodeur based on a few numbers is silly. Im not saying he is not as good, just saying your numbers don't mean anything.

The sport that really "gets" it is NFL football. You can have some very high QB numbers but if you never won the superbowl, you probably aren't getting into the hall of fame. I love hockey but just about any player who gets a 50 goal season in their career gets in

There is just way more to a players greatness than a GAA or SA% that cannot be put down in numbers.

Zoaelite · #15 01-18-2010, 03:52 AM

Pffft Ryan Miller with 26 Wins, 5 SO and a SVPCT of 0.936 is where its at

. Eh Pelle how are those clams doing for ya?

wayner · #16 01-18-2010, 01:03 PM

If you don't think shots on goal is a worthy stat, your out to lunch - anyhow, if you seen Kipper this year , you would come to understand, or maybe not, judging by some of the comments, that Kipper is the Flames MVP game in game out -

Don't even talk to me about what level of Hockey I played and with who, I can see now by your coments you really don't know hockey at all

StirCrazy · #17 01-18-2010, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wayner

If you don't think shots on goal is a worthy stat, your out to lunch - anyhow, if you seen Kipper this year , you would come to understand, or maybe not, judging by some of the comments, that Kipper is the Flames MVP game in game out -

Kipper had a good run on Oct, Nov, and the beggining of Dec.. but what has he done laitly?

Its not that is itsn't a good stat, it showes that the goalie had to be in the net that many times or the puck would have went in.

what I am saying is overall it is a weak stat, and there are breakdowns of it that are much better. look at it this way. if a team is on the penility kill for 40 min of the game and all they do is ice the puck 50 times right at the other teams net from there end, that counts as 50 shots on net.. did the goalie have to work that hard?

here is a good article on goaltending statistice and why they are no good.
it is old, but the theory and statistics are still good, even mention Cow Towns goaltending in 2003 I think.
http://www.hockeyanalytics.com/Resea...ot_Quality.pdf

here is a quote from his 2005 data
"

Calgary:

It is widely held that Miikka Kiprusoff carried the Flames on his back. However, the Flames saw easier shots than the rest of the league, except when Dany Sabourin played goal (which was only 4 games). However, Kiprusoff exceeded predictions (.933 save percentage

vs. .912 predicted) by a significant margin, thus earning the accolades."

here is 2006 data

"
Calgary:
The Flames, with a defensive style reputation, “prevented” tougher shots against (.903 shot quality). When Vezina winner Miikka Kiprusoff played, the Flames saw a shot quality of .904 and their goalie well outplayed predictions (actual save percentage of .923; 102.10 SQI). When Brian Boucher (acquired late in the year) played, the shot quality was tougher than average (.888) and he failed to stop shots at his predicted rate (96.17 SQI). Philip Sauve (dealt to Phoenix) saw average shot quality and came in below predictions. The Flames tied the Wild for the “easiest” median predicted probability of saving a shot at .940. That is, a
full half of their shots against were predicted to be stopped at the .940 rate or higher, which speaks highly of Calgary’s defense."

anyways Both Luongo and Brodure face easyer shots on a consistant basis also, which also goes to the team building process of getting a good defencive core first. with a good defence you can spen less on a goalie and end up with good results. this was Detroits way of doing businness for years. Calgary kinda did this but they also spent money on a goalie to steal the odd game the defence couldent win.

there is another study out there that goes further and breaks down the shot to where on the ice it was taken, by both distance and angle. I will see if I can find it and post it also it is an eye opener.

Due to my advancing age, I am not as quick as I used to be so I have turned into more of a statistical goal player using my size and angles to my advantage.. but I can definatly tell you that a good defencive pair makes a heck of a differance on the types of shots I face. on our 3 lines one is not very good but they try

and if you recorded the goals/shots I bet 60% are when that line is on the ice

Steve