omg... the Ich is back . What's the deal?!?!? I need help.

[Delphinus]

If there are spots within 24 hours of introduction, and none on the established fish (and none for several weeks) is there not a chance that the new fish came with the ich? Not disputing whether ich was present or not these last 6-8 weeks, but it seems more plausible to me that the new fish may have been carrying too. After all, they just went through the stress of capture, relocation, and so on, so why would we assume that they came ich-free to begin with?

I think treatment needs to be tempered with the severity of the ich. I don't know. I guess I've been mostly lucky in this respect, but any time I've introduced a new fish that subsequently shown a few scattered spots, eventually overcame them on their own, given good water quality, feeding with garlic supplemented, and just overall common sense on what's good to do and what's not good to do. Now, a bad infestation is obviously not something that can be left to blind hopefulness, of course, but for me, that's what worked.

[danny zubot]

Here guys, this will answer all of your questions and ease your mind.

http://www.petsforum.com/personal/tr...marineich.html

http://<br /> http://www.petsforum....osalinity.html

Note the parts on "innate and aquired" immunity, as well as "obligate" parasites. it states that an obligate parasite such as ick cannot survive without infecting a host. However, it doesn't say how long ick can remain encysted before it ruptures. Only that it "usually takes any where from 6 to 24 days.

I posted a thread in RC desease forum with this question.

[Bob I]

Originally Posted by danny zubot

I'm interested to know where you read the info about them encysting long term. I've often wondered if they could lay dormant, or if they had to be "born" at a certain time of maturity. Do you think if I continue the Kick ick treatment on my main tank it will aid in killing off any dormant ick cysts?

The idea of long term survival comes out of what knowledge I have about biology. It just does not make sense that the cysts do not go dormant for very long periods of time. Encysting for such a short period of time would not aid in species survival.

Then again, Tony is correct in that the Ich in the gills is what seems to kill the host, not so much the presence of spots.

I do believe that OCDP is doing the right thing in providing optimum conditions and garlic feeding. Trying to move them when all seems hopeless will kill them for sure.

[bulletsworld]

Wow, the continual rehash of Ich, over and over again.


Bob,
I’m sorry but I have to disagree with you. There is many factors why you may have gotten ich back. Depending on the treatment options you used. If it was Hyposalinity its possible it was not left long enough or the salinity had raised during treatment that then should extend the treatment starting from start again. Also there is resent study of ich becoming more resistant to Hyposalinity treatment if the fish is heavily. But I have never experienced this if treatment was done correctly.

Also there are special measures that one MUST take after they have gone through the treatment process using Copper or Hyposalinity and leaving main tank fowl WITHOUT ADDING ANY NEW LIVESTOCK, I not a coral or any invert during the fowl period. Then after treatment is done… NEVER add another piece of livestock (coral, fish, invert) unless its gone in QT tank for a period of time for inspection.




OCDP,

You post, “OMG, the ich is back?” Of course it’s back… Umm Doh. You never attempted to treat the problem it in the first place. How could you expect it to just go away on its own? Especially after you lost fish to the first outbreak, which obviously was severe. If only it was that easy, hey.

Originally Posted by OCDP

So you know, I am at a loss.. no QT, no supplies for QT, no money for QT ... I thought I had gotten off lucky, I admit to that...

But didn’t you just go to Gold’s and buy more fish with $$? Mini aqua clear & 50 heaters are items that can be bought very cheap from local reefers if not given away. A used 10 QT, filter & heater are essential to keeping healthy fish or livestock long term in this hobby. With out ever planning to setup QT tank or "making room for QT" for ALL new additions, with all the ich, velvet, cycts, flukes, red bugs, nudi’s etc. Without a QT tank it’s only a matter of time before one gets something.

Originally Posted by OCDP

but I am just soo confused as to why these two fish didn't get ich, and they have both been in the tank for a while ... and then the clowns are in for one night, and the next I spot the evil white spots..... I am so PO'd !!

There is much debate of the understanding of the Ich cycle and how some fish can gain immunity. Fish can carry the parasite under their gills making it much harder to detect through random observation. They can suffer mild infections but still be a carrier not taking over coming the fish. But as soon as you add a new fish, of course that’s stress from the netting and the travel the ich is present in the tank therefore infecting the weak fish & having it become heavily infected.

To read more about immunity go to this site. http://www.petsforum.com/personal/tr...marineich.html


There is ONLY two methods of treatment for Marine “Ich”.

Copper and Hyposalinity

To read more about treatment with Hyposalinity go to this site. http://www.petsforum.com/personal/tr...osalinity.html


Best of luck.

[OCDP]

It's just things like these that make me wonder why we must insist on buying these fish... it's so very unfair.. but theres nothing I can do about that, I can however do my best with the clowns. Will do a water change ASAP, get the garlic tonight, and feed. I will feed a variety, mysis, shrimp, cyclopeeze and maybe some brine.

Don't get me wrong, the clowns still look great.. still in very good health right now. There was no spots on them this morning.. it seems that even last time with my previous pair of percs, I seen the ich mostly at night, with actinics on. But still did see ich in daytime.

**Fish Tanks : The last thing on earth you would expect to drive you mentally insane.

[danny zubot]

I do believe that OCDP is doing the right thing in providing optimum conditions and garlic feeding. Trying to move them when all seems hopeless will kill them for sure.

I don't agree with this at all. Mine were very far gone, almost two weeks after I noticed the first spots. They were very heavily covered and not eating when I finally put them into the Q-tank. After I achieved the salinty of 10 ppt it only took a day or two for the spots to dissapear and thier appitites to come back. Low salinty is what saved my fish. It makes for easier osmotic response.

Don't get me wrong, the clowns still look great.. still in very good health right now.

For now!

[OCDP]

Well I guess all's I am left to say is that had I known these kinds of things happen so frequently in the hobby, I wouldn't have started. But I obviously didn't do my reading.

I guess it's time to start thinking about selling things off again. I can't keep going through problem, after problem , after problem... its never ending for me... and after a year or so of all these various problems, I am more than ready to throw in the towel. Call me weak if you will... I am just not seeing the fun side of this hobby no longer. I just keep seeing problem after problem, with no enjoyment and LOTS of money spent.

And I wonder why I bother... if your not enjoying it, and keep running into problems, wasting money.... it's obviously time to get out right? I dont know how much more fishy problems I can handle.

[OCDP]

One mroe small thing.. to do hyposalinity you need a refractometer (sp) right?

Hmm... this 10g QT tank that is supposed to be setup is going to cost a lot more than what everyone thinks... that's how it ALWAYS is.. nothing is cheap in this hobby. If the feedings and water conditions doesn't help... I guess the only thing left is to just sell it, and go fish only after... 2 clowns, no live rock.. no corals.. nothing... just two clowns, and some ornaments so they can hide, etc...

[Bob I]

[quote="danny zubot"]

I do believe that OCDP is doing the right thing in providing optimum conditions and garlic feeding. Trying to move them when all seems hopeless will kill them for sure.

I don't agree with this at all. Mine were very far gone, almost two weeks after I noticed the first spots. They were very heavily covered and not eating when I finally put them into the Q-tank. After I achieved the salinty of 10 ppt it only took a day or two for the spots to dissapear and thier appitites to come back. Low salinty is what saved my fish. It makes for easier osmotic response.

How can you possibly disagree with something that actually happened to someone

Almost EVERY fish that I have placed in a quarantine/treatment tank has died. Almost all the fish I have placed directly into my aquarium has lived

Therefore my EXPERIENCES dictate not putting a fish into quarantine. Your experiences undoubtedly have validity, but there is equal validity in mine.

There are as many proponents of a given method as opponents. ALL methods if they work are valid.

[bulletsworld]

Originally Posted by Bob_I

Almost EVERY fish that I have placed in a quarantine/treatment tank has died. Almost all the fish I have placed directly into my aquarium has lived

I can understand where your coming from here. *HUGS* Most people don't QT fish until their already sick. When the fish is already heavily infected sometimes the stress of the netting & being all cramped into a small bare bone tank with all the tankmates is just more then the sick fish can take.

That's why its always its Preventative Measure to quarantine everything before hand preventing future stress & problems. Resulting in healthy fish.