Dry Pukani Rock - Curing - aquascaping

[eli@fijireefrock.com]

Originally Posted by reefwars

sure...but thats not what i did lol
I wasn't specifically pointing fingers at you,it just maybe seemed that way



bacteria...organics


these are the two things about using dry rock....with a little help from mr science we know each of these can be manipulated , removed or added to

Yes of course so is everything else could be manipulated but I am simply giving advice on my product from my experience and others that used it.
Like I said above I will not go into specific details on how bacteria,lights,saltwater,temperature and chemicals come together

so why did my tank show no phosphates ( still doesnt ) , no amonia and no nitrates ?
I am not saying it will not work about what you have done as many done the same some with success and some not so much.For me as I sell and distribute the product will take it the safe way telling all my customers accordingly and we all know as the hobby progresses its always and I mean always best to take thing slow.
Doing testing on a product or how things work is another topic.



the same way live rock can or cant lol

nutrients can be imported ( hence why the rock has it anyways ) there fore it can be exported , simple carbon dosing can take care of that ( worked great for me ) but exporting nutrients isn't new technology its pretty darn documented on how well and what ways its removed.
Yes nutrient export is an old discussion and there is no right way of doing things but we always give advice on what we have gone through or seen others do with the open topic.
Carbon dosing is another discussion maybe another day.


the other is bacteria ...ill say this it would take chemicals to kill bacteria...simply drying the rock isnt enough to get rid of bacteria , may bring the population down but wont kill it completely as well..bacteria is not in short supply be it in a reef, in the air or anywhere for that matter
We are simply talking about aerobic and anaerobic bacteria specifically found in saltwater aquariums.Yes decent temperature swing will render some bacteria.Yes drying the rock will kill the bacteria but how much of it dies depending on how and how long you dry the rock,its like taking a fish out of the water,can you specifically tell me how long it will survive before death or maybe the first question would be what kind of fish are talking about as some survive minutes to an hour before death(same as bacteria)

to this day i havent got 1 pound of liverock in my tank , now yes the corals i add has bacteria and the bases they are on but in weight what do we have maybe 2 lbs....surface area isnt great on my toch stem but none the less bacteria is there lol

so how much bacteria does it take to convert amonia?

we use to say a lb per gallon .....some say 2 lol
That is a question with many answers and if your answer is right to you and works in your system doesn't mean it works in another system.
A simple example from my system.
I have 1300glns of water and about 1500lbs of rock that doesn't mean I could place 100 pcs of colonies in there with no issues,for me usually feed my rock for 2 weeks before a shipment then when a shipment arrives and place all these colonies in there I know for a fact that my rock is loaded with hungry bacteria....and have 0 affect on my fish or chemistry.

what if i told you i cant remember the last time i seen a person who had a tank crash due to not enough bacteria populatio ( not unless we go bacjk to the chemicals ) you would be hard pressed to stop the process if you tried lol.
True you would be hard to stop the process but none the less you will have an affect on that system.


so while i wanted to wait months , add all kinds of bleach and acids , go buy actual liverock etc.


when i did the math ( and its not just me , hit the chemistry forum on rc ) it didnt make any sense to me to go through any of this
No one is twisting arms to buy live or dry rock its simply a choice that people take.A choice of price,type and other things could be discussed another day.


def not for the inadvanced but def isnt the only way to do it either or the best lol
Like I said above especially in this hobby there are a ton of information and how things get done by each individual but there is nothing wrong with getting different views and making ones decision

WoW I had a long day at the office and man it feels good to talk reefing

[Easto]

Thanks guys!

[Craigdillman]

Awesome thread i just was explaining this too someone and you explained it way better in less words i may be copying and pasting this in the future lol

[Easto]

I am pretty happy about the way this thread turned out. Blew my expectations out of the water.

[asylumdown]

Originally Posted by reefwars

sure...but thats not what i did lol
the other is bacteria ...ill say this it would take chemicals to kill bacteria...simply drying the rock isnt enough to get rid of bacteria , may bring the population down but wont kill it completely as well..bacteria is not in short supply be it in a reef, in the air or anywhere for that matter

I think we should be careful with statements like this. As Eli point out, not all bacteria are created equal. The kinds of bacteria I think you'e talking about, the nitrifiers that you need to process ammonia and nitrite, are not nearly as resilient as the heterotrophs that do the majority of the decomposing in a tank. Most heterotrophs can go in to a cyst stage when conditions or resources are not optimal, and as a result can be pretty resistant to things like drying, or storage for long periods in bottles of bacterial supplements, but the "true" nitrifiers, the nitrobacter and nitrosoma bacteria do not have that ability. They also reproduce VERY slowly, dividing once every 10-30 hours, vs once every 20 minutes for most of the carbon eating heterotrophs.

If something happens to disrupt a population of nitrifiers, be that a drying event or a sudden swing in temperature or chemistry (thought their tolerance for temp swings is likely greater than anything you'd pay to put in a tank), it can torpedo their numbers enough to cause a spike in ammonia.

Add to that there are different clades of chemo-autotrophs adapted to different concentrations of nitrogenous compounds. If ammonia gets high enough, you can start killing off large numbers of the kind that are adapted to the nearly undetectable levels of a reef. You'll never wipe them out completely, but these issues all contribute to the instability typically referred to as 'new tank syndrome'.

Anyway my point is that no, you'll never kill them all, but when we're talking about the kinds of bacteria that we care about to keep our fish alive, they are more delicate, and slower to rebound than "normal" bacteria. They get all their energy from the bonds between nitrogen and hydrogen or nitrogen and oxygen, and all their carbon from atmospheric CO2. Compared to bacteria that are metabolically "burning" complex carbohydrates with atmospheric oxygen, this is a costly way to meet your energy needs. Hence the lengthy division time, and why it takes so long to cycle a tank.

[reefwars]

Originally Posted by asylumdown

Anyway my point is that no, you'll never kill them all, but when we're talking about the kinds of bacteria that we care about to keep our fish alive, they are more delicate, and slower to rebound than "normal" bacteria. They get all their energy from the bonds between nitrogen and hydrogen or nitrogen and oxygen, and all their carbon from atmospheric CO2. Compared to bacteria that are metabolically "burning" complex carbohydrates with atmospheric oxygen, this is a costly way to meet your energy needs. Hence the lengthy division time, and why it takes so long to cycle a tank.

Exactly , so it can be done....maybe not the fastest method for instant load , but the tanks ability for more load only becomes larger if the environment is healthy enough and it's needs are met , ammonia in large numbers would be harmful to a number of critters yes , certainly , but that doesn't mean you have to settle for amonia.

Fwiw I'm not concerned about amonia , this is something that can be tested , monitored and changed or removd at will......I'm more talking about the curing process to remove phosphates bound to the rock.....this is where my 2 cents came in and the fun curing part i was refering to , still not for the faint at heart but it does show that there's always more than way to the same goal.

As mentioned I'm sure the corals i placed in it had bacteria all over them so it's not a complete start from scratch

[nbreau]

I just received a shipment of awesome pukani and shelf rock from Eli ... lots of people seem to suggest the acid bath route, but I can be patient ... if I'm setting up a new tank (currently empty) can I just add the rock to the tank, leave off the lights, and simply let it run for a few months in salt water with a heater until all the parameters look good ?

IF so would I expect this process to take weeks, months, years ? Does it depend on the amount of rock ? (roughly 70lbs) .. IF acid bathing cuts off a 6 month wait time I'll hop on that train ... but it's only 6-8 weeks until everything generally settles I can probably wait.

[Koleswrath]

Nbreau- curing time is dependant on the amount of organics and bound phosphate that the rock contains at the beginning. 6-8 weeks is reasonable on average though. Bleaching and rinsing will breakdown large organics and leave less to cure by bacterial action = faster. Phosphate in the rock needs to be broken off and used by bacteria until it is used up (via Eli's methods).

Reefwars- how did you release and export the bound phosphate in the rock without cooking it? (I'm assuming all dry rock comes from land based mines and is chock full of bound phosphates)

[Koleswrath]

Originally Posted by asylumdown

I think we should be careful with statements like this. As Eli point out, not all bacteria are created equal. The kinds of bacteria I think you'e talking about, the nitrifiers that you need to process ammonia and nitrite, are not nearly as resilient as the heterotrophs that do the majority of the decomposing in a tank. Most heterotrophs can go in to a cyst stage when conditions or resources are not optimal, and as a result can be pretty resistant to things like drying, or storage for long periods in bottles of bacterial supplements, but the "true" nitrifiers, the nitrobacter and nitrosoma bacteria do not have that ability. They also reproduce VERY slowly, dividing once every 10-30 hours, vs once every 20 minutes for most of the carbon eating heterotrophs.

If something happens to disrupt a population of nitrifiers, be that a drying event or a sudden swing in temperature or chemistry (thought their tolerance for temp swings is likely greater than anything you'd pay to put in a tank), it can torpedo their numbers enough to cause a spike in ammonia.

Add to that there are different clades of chemo-autotrophs adapted to different concentrations of nitrogenous compounds. If ammonia gets high enough, you can start killing off large numbers of the kind that are adapted to the nearly undetectable levels of a reef. You'll never wipe them out completely, but these issues all contribute to the instability typically referred to as 'new tank syndrome'.

Anyway my point is that no, you'll never kill them all, but when we're talking about the kinds of bacteria that we care about to keep our fish alive, they are more delicate, and slower to rebound than "normal" bacteria. They get all their energy from the bonds between nitrogen and hydrogen or nitrogen and oxygen, and all their carbon from atmospheric CO2. Compared to bacteria that are metabolically "burning" complex carbohydrates with atmospheric oxygen, this is a costly way to meet your energy needs. Hence the lengthy division time, and why it takes so long to cycle a tank.

And very well said.

Greg

[reefwars]

Originally Posted by Koleswrath

Nbreau- curing time is dependant on the amount of organics and bound phosphate that the rock contains at the beginning. 6-8 weeks is reasonable on average though. Bleaching and rinsing will breakdown large organics and leave less to cure by bacterial action = faster. Phosphate in the rock needs to be broken off and used by bacteria until it is used up (via Eli's methods).

Reefwars- how did you release and export the bound phosphate in the rock without cooking it? (I'm assuming all dry rock comes from land based mines and is chock full of bound phosphates)

In order to truly remove it from the system (which is what I think you mean-nutrient export) most likely some phosphate was removed/bound via the gfo , I ran a batch of gfo which has only recently been changed right from the beginning , some through skimming and some is processed in the system down the chain through animals in the system .....basically The same way it would be exported in a tank that housed all liverock

As an added twist I use all tap water lol

Tank still has zero po4 on a Hanna , I changed out the gfo recently just to freshen it up and no nitrates ever.

Dose is still at 40mls of vinegar over a photo period

Tank has seen maybe 3 water changes now as I did another recently.

Up until now I had no liverock in the system , I added a few Pounds to my fuge as I'm babysitting a ruby red dragonette and didn't want it to starve so wants it to have some life to hunt off

If anything my rock should have been packed with phosphates , it sat in 6" of stale tap water while we tested the watfalls , half the rock is out of the water , full tap water , nps corals needing daily feedings and not that many water changes and gfo going on

I def could have done worse as i followed none of the protocal steps lol

Coraline has taken over the tank , Rocks are getting almost full coverage on Coraline , I've got feather dusters out the wazoo and glass gets lots of Copepods

No cheat in the fuge yet but I honestly doubt it would do much it doesnt in my larger system

However do as I preach which is take the steps prior and not as I do lol