Sad news: baby elephant has died.

[Samw]

Originally Posted by albert_dao

Personally, I think greed is a spinoff behavior of territoriality.

To me, territoriality is about survival of the individual. On the other hand, greed is the desire to obtain more than is necessary to survive. This requires a level of intelligence only exhibited by humans (I think). We don't need a BMW, but many people want 1. We don't need a (insert some expensive designer clothing maker) designer jacket but many people want it. We don't need those diamond rings, etc, etc. On the other hand, Predatory animals generally don't kill more than they need to survive.

[EmilyB]

Originally Posted by Buk_A_neer

Is it you ?

As far as I know we have not talked about this subject in the past so there are at least 2 of you with that opinion ... is that what you are saying ?

What is your views on the subject then and are you then a " tree-hugger " ?

No, I don't think a lot about trees, nor do I get stirred up much about issues, so I think I wouldn't fit into the tree-hugger category.

I do think a lot about animals. Some of us are just different I guess, but I bet there are a whole lot more than just two of us.

[marie]

Originally Posted by Samw

To me, territoriality is about survival of the individual. On the other hand, greed is the desire to obtain more than is necessary to survive. This requires a level of intelligence only exhibited by humans (I think). We don't need a BMW, but many people want 1. We don't need a (insert some expensive designer clothing maker) designer jacket but many people want it. We don't need those diamond rings, etc, etc. On the other hand, Predatory animals generally don't kill more than they need to survive.

greed, i think, is just another form of survival. While animals wouldn't know what to do with a bmw, food is definitly high on the list of things to horde. A dog in the manger is a good example, the dog doesn't want the grain but won't let the horse eat it either. territories are as big as can be monitered, regardless of whether the animal needs that much room or not.
And the reason predatory animals don't kill more, is because the best way to protect the food is to eat it, and the stomach can only hold so much.

[albert_dao]

Originally Posted by CptCleverer

And, where can I find that video?

Go out and pick up Micheal Moore's Fareheit 9/11

It's in there somewhere. Don't take the movie too seriously though, it is heavily biased and subjective. Sure, there's a lot of validity to it, but there's also a lot of information that they purposefully left out, that and some cheap sympathy for the masses.

[albert_dao]

Originally Posted by Samw

To me, territoriality is about survival of the individual. On the other hand, greed is the desire to obtain more than is necessary to survive. This requires a level of intelligence only exhibited by humans (I think). We don't need a BMW, but many people want 1. We don't need a (insert some expensive designer clothing maker) designer jacket but many people want it. We don't need those diamond rings, etc, etc. On the other hand, Predatory animals generally don't kill more than they need to survive.

Well, allow me to explain a bit:

Territoriality, as a behavior can be described as a passive (marking), or active (driving other competitors out) behavior to sustain control of an area or resource. It's the process by which an individual helps protect its survival by controlling competition for resources. Looking at it this way, it's not hard to make a leap of logic and to extend behaviors such as hoarding food and driving competitors out to wanting more then one needs at any given time.

You have to seperate greed from vanity. The two are completely different and juxtaposing them is a mistake. To me, vanity is a consequential behavior resulting from the need to attract mates (Read: sexual instinct). My thinking there is that just as the bowerbird with the largest bower or the peacock with the most extensive tail attracts the most females, humans with the nicest BMW, prettiest attire, largest bank account, etc, attract the most mates. But because we are able to reason, we are able to extend this behavior into a social ritual that transcends sexual instinct and forms its own unique attribute: ambition. Hope that helps.

[Samw]

Originally Posted by marie

greed, i think, is just another form of survival.

But I haven't been able to find this definition anywhere. The definitions that I have read is that greed is acquiring more than one needs (ie. to survive). So greed can't be a form of survival by definition of the word.

While animals wouldn't know what to do with a bmw, food is definitly high on the list of things to horde.

Food hording then is for survival and thus is not a form of greed. It is not acquiring more than one needs to survive since it is the act of gathering enough food for the future (ie. survival). I still haven't heard of animal greed before. I have always thought greed was by definition, a human trait.

[Samw]

Originally Posted by albert_dao

Well, allow me to explain a bit:

Territoriality, as a behavior can be described as a passive (marking), or active (driving other competitors out) behavior to sustain control of an area or resource. It's the process by which an individual helps protect its survival by controlling competition for resources. Looking at it this way, it's not hard to make a leap of logic and to extend behaviors such as hoarding food and driving competitors out to wanting more then one needs at any given time.

You have to seperate greed from vanity. The two are completely different and juxtaposing them is a mistake. To me, vanity is a consequential behavior resulting from the need to attract mates (Read: sexual instinct). My thinking there is that just as the bowerbird with the largest bower or the peacock with the most extensive tail attracts the most females, humans with the nicest BMW, prettiest attire, largest bank account, etc, attract the most mates. But because we are able to reason, we are able to extend this behavior into a social ritual that transcends sexual instinct and forms its own unique attribute: ambition. Hope that helps.

The only thing we disagree on here is the definition of the word greed. I don't equate greed to survival. By defnition, the behavior of acquiring more than what one NEEDS means that it is not for survival. Therefore, doing something greedy is not the same as doing something for survival. An animal acquiring as much territory as it can is simply increasing its odds of survival and reproduction. Thus the animal is not being greedy at all.

[albert_dao]

Originally Posted by Samw

The only thing we disagree on here is the definition of the word greed. I don't equate greed to survival. By defnition, the behavior of acquiring more than what one NEEDS means that it is not for survival. Therefore, doing something greedy is not the same as doing something for survival. An animal acquiring as much territory as it can is simply increasing its odds of survival and reproduction. Thus the animal is not being greedy at all.

My original thought on this stream was that GREED was a derivative behavior of territoriality; they are not necessarily one and the same, but IMO, greed evolved from territoriality.

[albert_dao]

Wow, how far we have strayed... Haha, great thread though!

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by Delphinus

I posted about something that meant a lot to me personally. Yes, it had nothing to do with aquariums but I consider the Canreef community my "friends" and thought it was OK to speak frankly amongst friends. If I erred, then I apologize.

I dont think you " erred " in any way Tony ... and I am sure the majority of us especially those that have met you personally consider you a friend.

It does mean alot to alot of people ... ethics of Zoos in general ... animal lovers ... darwinian theories of evolution ... creation as it is told in the bible ... did I miss anything ?

It is just talk and can be debated till the end of time ... bottom line is that we are all ( I am pretty sure ) sad that the baby elephant did not make it ... it looks like they are going to give it another try and in my mind that is good thing ... thanks for starting the thread and sorry that I contributed in diverting it from it's original course.

Your friend