which shop in calgary is the best in service??

[incoma]

Wow where gettin quite the audience.

[Buccaneer]

Well then that brings up a interesting point in that a LFS could get their hands on quality if they choose to and as a wholesaler you are privy to this information ... now a LFS that proudly advertises non-cyanide caught fish and has to pay a premium for it can get a premium in return ... for one thing there wont be as much die-off in their own tanks before they even get sold and they could QT the fish as well which as hobbyists appreciate since there seems to be a large number that cant resist putting that new fish into their tanks right away but at the risk of infecting all the fish in their tanks by doing so ...

the majority of people you say would buy the fish even if it was cyanide caught I bet ya dont even know that fish can be caught with cyanide ... what needs to be done is to educate the public of the advantages of net caught over cyanide caught ... ask anyone that has been on one of these boards for at least a few months how much they have learned about the hobby as a whole and they appreciate the education these boards provide ... nice to see another point of view ... hope that does not hurt your head too much ?

Cheers

[Canadian Man]

I would love a seahorse in my 75g fuge. I was getting excited. The price wouldn't have mattered much but as you said we only make up a fragment of the reefers

[AJ_77]

Yeah, it's the thread that wouldn't die...

Originally Posted by saltcreep

Much is made of the collectors, exporters, importers, and LFS, but I don't here a peep on these boards when a hobbyist purchases a product that is unsuitable or at risk. Apparantly that is taboo. I agree that most of you are ones that actually care, but make up the minority of trade.

Even gently scolding a newbie is a risk, especially one that you have the thinnest relationship with (as in on this board). Telling a guy that he's an idiot for buying that CBB when everyone told him not to, is going to get him ****ed off and most likely gone for good, making his mistakes on his own from here on in... Or that anemone, or that tang, or that dragonette, etc etc etc...

It's only the people you know who'll take correction from you, and even then, it's easy to take offense and leave. Nobody is trying to kill anything, it just happens...

You actually do see a tremendous amount of restraint on this board, when it comes to chiding people for unsuitable purchases, mostly before the fact. Sometimes I want to lay a lashing on folks, but hey, I'm no expert either. When the experienced reefers do step in with stronger advice (and where the heck IS Van anyways??) even that is taken wrong. Some of the best advice I've seen has provoked the idiots it was intended for.

(No offense intended of course... I think we need a Don Cherry for the reefing community - to tell it like it is. )

[saltcreep]

Here, here to education. Why do you think I frequent these boards? Most of you know as much or more about proper husbandry than I.

I would also agree that the vast majority of hobbyists are oblivious to environtmental concerns and others that just don't care. Trust me, doing the right thing doesn't always end with $ucce$$.

There are a lot of good LFS out there and some real bad ones. Some of the bad ones we try and help out and we try to be available to the ones that look for our help. It is also the LFS responsibility to educate themselves, just as the hobbyist...which I guess gets back to the whole point of the thread.

[Quinn]

I am going to loose sleep over this thread. Here we go again...

Originally Posted by saltcreep

I will say that fundamentally this industry is much like any other, believe it or not. When you get down to the root of it, all the products, be it dry goods or live, are a commodity. Don't even drag oil companies into this argument...that's a whole other board for another day. The two industries don't even compare.

Obviously you're not looking at this from the same perspective as me then, because I think there are a lot of parallels here. Let's look at Shell in Nigeria when we compare, for a moment. We are talking about harvesting a natural resource, one that is only semi-renewable, from a foreign country, a foreign country that is in a state where they are desperate for foreign investment. These states are relatively young and underdeveloped, and do not have established protocol for the harvesting of natural resources. We do not need to discuss human rights infringements but we can certainly compare the two industries. Therefore I would argue that marine livestock collection in southeast Asia and oil drilling in Africa are relatively similar, versus say, the former and logging in British Columbia. This was my essential point.

Originally Posted by saltcreep

Industry greed...well I would like to add that you, the hobbyist (nobody specifically out there), are part of this industry, and thus, are part of the problem too. This is where the market forces come into play. Much is made of the collectors, exporters, importers, and LFS, but I don't here a peep on these boards when a hobbyist purchases a product that is unsuitable or at risk. Apparantly that is taboo. I agree that most of you are ones that actually care, but make up the minority of trade. There are a great many that make purchases solely on price. This could explain why the majority of the fish and inverts come from Indonesia or the Philippines. Check back to other discussions on this board and look at some of the comments. Hobbyists (few) would rather save money and purchase a fish that may have been caught with cyanide rather than pay a premium for a fish that is guaranteed caught without. Why don't you see coral beauties from either Fiji or Australia with any regularity? Answer - too much money for the average hobbyist when compared with the same fish from Indo or PI.

For every LFS there are probably several thousand aquarists. Therefore the power, I believe, lies more in their hands, and the hands of importers/wholesalers, to deal with unsuitable/at-risk animals, versus the hobbyists. Alan has pointed out that it is difficult for us hobbyists to tell a newbie not to put seahorses in a reef tank or not to buy a mandarin for a 20 gallon. The answer, once again, is to stop their importation or license their ownership. You say that none of the blame falls on the hobbyist - I hear where you are coming from, but how do you blame a child for manslaughter when the parent handed him a loaded gun? The stores, wholesalers and importers need to start acting responsibly, first off by helping educate newbies rather than pushing for the almighty dollar and secondly by restricting or working with the authorities to restrict certain species.

Originally Posted by saltcreep

Now take a look at captive bred product. Why isn't there more? Answer - see above. The average hobbyist again will balk at purchasing that CB clown because it's twice the price of the wild caught clown. I have 5 captive bred seahorses that I've had for seven weeks. I haven't sold single horse...because they are too expensive.

We'll balk at high costs yes, but what if the stores only sold captive-bred? Again you are trying to defer the blame, which sounds good, but doesn't make sense. If stores stopped stocking both and didn't note whether the animals were wild-caught or captive-bred, hobbyists wouldn't know the difference and wouldn't have a thing to balk about. Also, remember that the vast majority of fish have not been bred in captivity. As far as I know, it's limited to essentially certain types of clowns, damsels, gobies, angelfish, shrimps and seahorses, and with a few exceptions, we only see damsels and clownfish in stores.

The feeling I'm getting from the people on the commercial side of things here is that "it can't be done". Us hobbyists are saying "oh please, we know it's easy". I think the reality is somewhere in between, and I'll quote Caterpillar Corp's slogan from back in the 70s, a time when the public was just beginning to become aware of the environmental issues associated with the harvesting of natural resources: "There are no simple solutions, only intelligent choices". And I'll add my own maxim to this, for good measure: "There are no simple answers to complex problems. Anyone who thinks there are is an idiot."

[saltcreep]

Don't lose any sleep, this is getting good.

WRT oil vs fish, I see your point, but the end product use is completely different...one is arguably a necessity and the other is a luxury "consumable". You could also argue the investment side, where African governments are raking in billions of dollars while crushing rights of their constituents while collectors in PI or Indo are trying to catch fish to feed their families. Now I promise...that is my last word about oil.

Now on to the heart of it...I believe that the vast majority of the blame can be placed on the importer, retailers, and the hobbyists. ALL of them. If I said that no blame falls on the hobbyist...ooops. I think a great deal falls on them, if not the majority. Again, if the newbie or uneducated doesn't want or buy the unsuitable fish/coral, then the retailer wouldn't buy it...and on the chain it goes. I know...oversimplified. As a side, I can remember getting yelled at buy an unnamed LFS for refusing to bring in a blue ring octopus.

Restricting certain species based on a perceived unsuitability will probably never happen. I would refer you to RC or RDO for that discussion, as it's been flogged pretty much to death.

A LFS store only selling captive bred??? That would never fly, period. Remember, the "average" generally will decide to purchase based on price. The "average" hobbyist will just shop elsewhere. They would certainly be able to tell if it was captive bred. How would you be able to justify the price if the guy down the street has the same fish for half the price.

Then you have the the issue of species availability. How many percs can you sell to pay your rent and hydro? The species commercially available today are very limited to about 10 species of clowns, a couple of cardinals, some dottybacks, and a few others. There are some Centropyge angels available but, big dollars. There is nothing wrong with wild caught fish as long as it is done with very little impact on the reef. CB and WC fish are not mutually exclusive. I believe they actually compliment each other nicely.

[Quinn]

Thanks for your response. I want to debate your oil industry comment further but I'm going to refrain, because I think we'd be getting even more off course.

I think we've made some headway in this thread, believe it or not. I always feel smarter when I participate in these big threads, even though I know it makes me look pretty dumb sometimes. The original topic was Calgary LFSs, and if this thread doesn't give them something to think about, I don't know what will. Hopefully we will see some serious improvements in the future.

[saltcreep]

Don't think the comments about the Calgary LFS are exclusive to them. There are good and bad everywhere. Hopefully, all will improve.

[aussiefishy]

just drop a line, i received a shipment from coastmountain this morning at 4am... very tired, i have to say the fish is very very good upon arrival. and the emperor and blue ring angels are eating after only 13 hrs from transport.

also, may i comment on the live rocks from coast mountain. very very good. top of the pack/!!

and a announcement, ocean aquarium will have a large coral shipment on december 3rd, anyone interested can be there on december 4th.

lastly, since i started this whole havoc. may i set a conclusion??

i think so far, i have seen alot of you saying alot, giving useful directions and comments on how to improve the LFS scene. and i think it is "safe" to conclude that LFS is important, we should try our best to improve on LFS owners and workers, this way, we all benefits. as far as how to do that, i am very very young and inexperience, and possibly been ****ing off alot of people in this topic... therefore it is not appropriate for me to suggest...

cheers