Concerning the new Buy/Sell posting format

[dc4]

Originally Posted by Zoaelite

Most of my concerns have been voiced by the general canreef populace, the only thing that I can add is I have no problem paying a membership fee (Something similar to RC) if this would help circumvent high vendor fees.

By all means this wouldn't be a "pay or get lost" thing, just give general members the option to "support" canreef. Paying members could get a little avatar indicating they have personally contributed.

Just my 2 cents.

I agree with this as well, lots of other sites have paid members along with non-paid members. I visit here quite often throughout the day for my fix and would gladly contribute funds to keep things rolling smooth.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

[reefwars]

Originally Posted by dc4

I agree with this as well, lots of other sites have paid members along with non-paid members. I visit here quite often throughout the day for my fix and would gladly contribute funds to keep things rolling smooth.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

absolutely same here

[gregzz4]

I would also contribute, and tried to last spring, but that's not going to fix this issue
Having members pay a little bit to be able to sell more would only turn away sponsors

All I'm looking for here is a little format simplicity

[Snaz]

I can't figure out what the purpose of this change is. I can understand adding new fields to a database record so that it becomes easily sortable but the prefix changes proposed here don't make any sense to me. Perhaps a list of Canadian cities would make more sense but I really don't understand what his goal is here

[Seriak]

Originally Posted by gregzz4

I would also contribute, and tried to last spring, but that's not going to fix this issue
Having members pay a little bit to be able to sell more would only turn away sponsors

All I'm looking for here is a little format simplicity

But wouldn't that be the point. If it did turn away a few sponsors, hopefully the added contributions from the members would offset the loss so this site can remain open and fair. Now do we have enough members to even try this, I have no idea. This would best be left for canreef's board and accountant to budget expected surplus or loss with this proposed change. Maybe you could even lower the sponsor fee depending on the member contributions.

[reefermadness]

Its obvious to stifle members from chop shopping or buying corals for the sole purpose of selling. I can agree to that....

But if its been in your system for a long time and frags are grown by you.....fair game I say.

If this still doesnt sound fair I know other forums have implemented different levels of sponsorships so even the basement small time fragger can afford to sponsor. Most people who want to do just a little side business by buying and selling or buying, fragging and selling; just might not have the income to justify the cost....so they are stuck.

[freezetyle]

Originally Posted by arash53

Also I dont like the posts are not editable anymore!!!! so annoying

Being able to edit posts was good for the sales threads. But I think I prefer it without. People tend to skew their normal behaviour on the internet and that feature helps to keep people accountable for their actions.

[titus]

Hello,
Okay finally have been able to read through these properly in front of a computer. I try to respond to the comments and queries as much as I can.

Originally Posted by gregzz4

When I select 'New Posts', many look as if I've already read them, due to this new setup.
This not only makes it harder to scan through threads I've read, but the length of the titles is counter-productive, at least from a 'scan through' prospective.

If we use Prefix to select locations, we'd have the same issue though one can say province acronyms are shorter which is something I'm keen to make it so for the existing prefixes as well. Otherwise, I can look into removing these prefixes in the New Posts results.

Originally Posted by waynemah

The concept is understandable, but the layout is confusing... Especially with some of them being linked and some not (I think it looks better unlinked). But I'm also fearful for my account... So, I'll stop there.

You mean linking as in most but the "Want To Buy" category are linked to the FAQ with explanation? No need to be afraid. While it doesn't mean we can cater to every requests it doesn't mean we can't listen to them and see what we can do about them as long as we keep the discussions civilized.

Originally Posted by waynemah

I've spent hundreds (if not thousands) of dollars at most of the sponsors on this site. I'm sure other members are in the same boat. In exchange for supporting these vendors, it would be nice to have a clean worry free buy/sell page where I can sell off unwanted products/frags without having the worry of breaking rules and following confusing grey area regulations. As you said, it's us members who drive this site... It seems as though this concept was lost in the implementation. /rant
I would be happy if the rules were clearly displayed on the main page of the buy/sell section and use this functionality for a clearer understanding of what the person is trying to do with their post. Having a drop down for "For Sale", "Group Buy", "Want to buy" without a link to rules would be clean and useful.

It appears that you are not aware there are indeed links in place for the Notice area above each of the Buy / Sell forum pages, and most of the Prefixes themselves, to the FAQ section explaning what the categories are.

Haven't forgotten about the membership who drives the traffic to the site, though not sure why we have come across as such because the implementation was meant to generate stats for me to see how the site is being used and who may be abusing it.

Originally Posted by MKLKT

It's overly wordy. I really don't need a EULA to reef keep. If there was just FS, FT, FF, LF, etc. That'd be perfect, otherwise I have to brush up on my legalese every time I post, which means I'll likely not bother.

I agree. I hate the current way of how things are but that's how they have been for quite some time already. If we can make them shorter I'm all up for it but I'd get confused with "FS, FT, FF, LF, etc". One of the reasons for the prefixes is I want to have a process in place where the person starting the thread is also declaring the nature of the thread (ie recurrent or one off, etc). If someone keeps on doing recurrent sale of quality corals every 3 weeks then we need to keep an eye on it. If someone keeps on doing one off sale of quality corals then we need to start investigating if someone is knowingly making false declarations. It is similar to the intention of filling in the Custom's entry card declaring how much and what kind of goods you are bringing in to the country. Yes people can falsify declarations but that's another story. However, this can partially be achieved by using simpler categories such as "For Sale, For Trade, etc" and us building a smarter reporting tool for generating the metrics.

Originally Posted by FishyFishy!

Maybe simple acronyms like most other forums would work? They don't need to be links either.

Can you give me the acronyms you have in mind? I disagree with no links as not everyone have the same interpretations. I know myself is one of them.

Originally Posted by Seriak

The prefix idea has some merit but...
a) the link to forum rules is annoying and a little too much and
b) confusing as all hell as part of the title says I have read the link and part doesn't. (As previously mentioned)
A better idea for a prefix would be to add a city which is mandatory. Now that would be useful.
I never did agree with a limitation on what I can sell out of my fish tank. It helps keep the bills down at least until the inevitable crash which makes me have to buy everything again.

Understood on what you meant by part of the title says you have read it and part of it says you haven't. However, depending on how we take this I may adjust the way the page is displayed to remove the Prefixes. The idea of choosing a city is great but that should be evident from the Location you have entered when you registered. As for agreeing with a limitation, we haven't set a limit. The Prefixes is a means for assist us in collecting information on the types of posts being made over time.
For "One Off Sale of Excess Goods from Personal Shipments", we don't expect someone to order 10 bukets of salt every month and then have to do this one off sale for 9 buckets in the shipment. This doesn't mean there is an issue with someone ordering sand and rock in the first quarter and have to get rid of some because there is too much, and then ordering snails in the second quarter and have to get rid of some because there were 5 too many, then followed by ordering ordering carbon and have to get rid of a few extra bags. But for those who declare this every month and selling off rock, then yes I'd start wondering what's happening.
For "One Off Sale of Personal Items", we don't expect someone keep having Protein Skimmers of all sorts of varieties being available and selling them every so often.
For "Recurrent Sale of Personal Items", this is the category which fragging corals belongs to and sure do this once in a while no problem. If there is an abundance of all sorts of corals and every month we have a sale, then yes something I'd like to know about before some paying sponsor write us a good PM or one of the Staff members getting fed up because they inquire the involved member, who then give them headaches, and in either case we have to read through all the threads and posts the involved members have made in order to get a feel of the history and jist of what happened.

Originally Posted by fishoholic

Seems like an ok idea in theory as a way to sort out sales posts but since it gives the option of "no prefix" it seems kinda pointless as I'm sure most people will choose that option out of convenience.

You will not be able to post without choosing one.

Originally Posted by clown lover

I totally agree, I quit using it to sell because everything is mixed together. Also not being able to edit to keep your thread up to date or remove your thread after you sell is a PITA.

You mean everythign starts with the same Prefix so they all appeared to be mixed together? This would be an issue as long as we use Prefix, even if we use it to categorize seller's location, or using acryonyms as suggested. And the thread editing feature was removed for an entirely different reason.

Originally Posted by Coasting

I may not post much on here but I do read through multiple times a day. "[One Off Sale of Personal Items]" Really? Like I think somebody selling a 200gallon tank has 40 more sitting in their basement. Its a bit redundant as well as annoying to look at for somebody who just clicks "New Posts". Even if people had a frag grow-op in their basement and was just cut and sell. They wouldn't be picking a title that said thats what they were doing. Just a Simple FS, FT, FF, LF (or a mix of them) that was mandatory would be more then enough, there are lots of people that forget to put that.
Now I would be all for something that makes people put a location in the title.

Believe it or not we do have to deal with issues with some selling quite a bit of stuff. If I do a report on the top 10 person electing this category and it reveals the top 2 have been making 5 of this type of posts of similar goods, then yes some discussions will start happening. This is now being done manually by some of the Staff members viewing the site scanning through the threads. I hate to see them having to do this and would like to have some process oriented manner that is done on an automated basis.
The "One Off Sale of Personal Items" is meant to assist us to distinguish from "One Off Sale of Excess Goods from Personal Shipments", both belonging to the "FS" category. We might in the long term be using the acronyms or something simpler like "For Sale". Just that the Staff have to read through the threads to find out whether it is from a new shipment or something that has been used for a while and is now being sold.
And yes the location as explained, is on the post as part of your member information.

Originally Posted by Ross

I imagine that it will become a vendor only market soon.
and all it will be is "Recurring Sale of Commercial Items" at the same price as everywhere else... WooHoo
If I sell a frag every 6 months, is that "Recurrent Sale of Personal Items]" or [One Off Sale of Personal Items]"?
As a purchaser, I only care that there is a frag for sale, not that one was sold in the past by this user.
"[One Off Sale of Excess Goods from Personal Shipments]" is redundant.
If someone is importing large quantities of items and constantly listing them up for sale, then they should be confronted by the mods at that point for sponsorship. I'm sure that the paying sponsors will see and mention if someone is undercutting them in this area.
All I want to know what is for sale/for trade/for free, where it is and price.

Vendors have their own forum to post and are not expected to post in the Buy / Sell forums.
If it's a frag every 6 months, then it'd be "Recurrent Sale of Personal Items" as we expect you to frag every so often. Regarding the purchaser not caring what category it is in, we can either change to make the Prefix not appear or change to use it to distinguish whether it is a "For Sale" or "Want To Buy", etc manner which is to be decided.
As for someone constantly selling large quantity of stuff, it's being done manually at the moment. As explained above I'm trying to find a way to automate this to relieve the Staff team from having to read through each post, remember who has been doing what, and then bring up for discussions. One of the aims is to find an automated way to do this.

Titus

[titus]

Hello,

I have to break this into two posts as the system is complaining it's too long to fit into one.

Originally Posted by reefwars

I think their should be a section for members buy and sell seperate from sponsors buy and sell.

Don't recall when I saw a commercial sponsor making a thread to sell stuff in the Buy / Sell forum. If you can find someone doing this all the time, please let me know.

Originally Posted by SteveConn

The new format seems to be targeted/include in some ways at those with a small frag setup... I don't have one (yet), but that to me is part of the fun of this hobby... to acquire corals and trade/sell frags. I buy plenty from the sponsors, but I also want to buy and sell to members if I chose and I hope the door isn't closing on that particular part of the hobby on this board.

We have no intention of shutting the door to fragging. I expect this to happen therefore the category "Recurrent Sale of Personal Items" which I expect to be the case for those who has larger tanks.

Originally Posted by lee9

+1. I think If they changed to the categories that MKLKT mentioned it would be better.
If the categories are going to be used they should be mandatory in the buy/sell forums. Then all the posts would be in a more standardized form and start with the appropriate prefix.
As others have mentioned as well I normally only view the New Posts listing unless I am specifically searching for something. I don't like how the category is never bolded on the new threads that I have not viewed.

We may ended up changing to the simpler categories. The prefixes are indeed mandatory as of this moment. You may see threads without prefixes being listed at the top of the search due to someone making a reply to a thread started before this change.
Regarding you not liking how the category is not bolded on the New Threads result page, this would happen even if we change to the simpler categories.

Originally Posted by Slick Fork

+1 on limiting the prefix to FF/FS/LF/FT. The new format looks unnecessarily wordy and complicated. If it's difficult people won't use it and speaking for myself the buy/sell is a big reason I check canreef multiple times a day instead of once a day. If Buy/sell dries up, so does a big reason for me to check in which decreases the amount of viewing of sponsor ad's that happens.
I also want to rant a little on the new definition (I think it's new, but maybe I just noticed it) of a commercial vendor; specifically the line about not needing even needing a website or other real "commercial" presence to fall under that category. A lot of our most active and most helpful members could potentially be classified under this new definition, guys who maintain a frag tank to subsidize their own hobby. If we chase these guys away in order to appease the sponsors we lose a tremendous resource and the sites quality will suffer as a direct result. To me, this smacks of bullying by vendors threatening to pull their advertising dollars and is really unfortunate.
I do realize that sponsors pay the bills around here, but enthusiasts selling frags out of their basement frag tanks keeps the hobby affordable, sustainable and their assistance and goodwill (on a level that you rarely see sponsors provide) help the large number of new members that pass through here every day keep from feeling overwhelmed by this intimidating hobby. If we lose that, your advertisers will have no one to bully but they will also have a drastically reduced audience to market their wares to. Once the advertisers see that site traffic is down, they will start questioning if advertising (sponsoring) on canreef is a worthwhile investment or money down the drain. Members are the reason Canreef gets sponsors who pay the bills. End of rant

I've already started liking the idea of the simpler category and this gives me another reason for it.
No need to rant and Canreef don't bow before sponsors, but we practice good business ethics so we don't take their sponsorship fees and do something that is detrimental to them. If we come across a time when we conflict with keeping the sponsors or providing a forum for members to trade, it'd be sponsors who go. In fact I recall we refunded one of the ex-sponsors of his remaining terms because we don't want that sponsor anymore because too many members have had problems with him. Luckily we haven't have to do this too often, and we may very well introduce a work around by accepting sponsorship from members rather than sponsors. Maybe we should start a poll on this.

Originally Posted by Zoaelite

Most of my concerns have been voiced by the general canreef populace, the only thing that I can add is I have no problem paying a membership fee (Something similar to RC) if this would help circumvent high vendor fees.
By all means this wouldn't be a "pay or get lost" thing, just give general members the option to "support" canreef. Paying members could get a little avatar indicating they have personally contributed.

Okay. +1 on the member sponsorship.

Originally Posted by reefwars

I would contribute reguarily , for people like me how is sponsorship possible where I don't own a business and my revenue from frags is small, I'm not someone who posts only when frags are for sale I post answers, I visit houses, give people tester frags free and offer any service I can....I rarely charge for anything just frags I swallow all other costs and time......its kinda sad that I have to be careful not to make sponsors mad when people like me put in the real blood and tears.
...I bet I can name 50 people I've helped one way or another free of charge since Christmas
....and when its time to sell some frags I'm stepping on eggshells
Not trying to start a revolt just stating what's obviously fact

Hopefully wiht my answer to Slick Fork above you shouldn't be worried about stepping on vendors toes if that's what you have been doing. For some, however, we do have to engage in discussions with them but they belong to the extreme minority.

Originally Posted by Borderjump

But it's not hard to guess where it's going tho. It's to stop people who are selling multiple frags. I find it kinda sad that I am "breakin the law" because of my 15 acan frags I started 2 months ago planning on December sale for some extra Christmas money. Guess there's too much competition here.

This would have triggered an alert on the reporting and someone will be knocking on your door the next day with a search warrant to take videos and photos of your setup. Just kidding! You'd have instead receive a PM from one of us asking you what are you planning to do.

Originally Posted by Zoaelite

In addition most of these sellers are providing something very few vendors provide, actual aquacultured frags, grown in their own home systems. Not a single store in Calgary at the moment has an actual propagation system. What option does this give us besides wild caught?
Please Canreef, stop oppressing the little guy before its too late!

Yes this is why we promote fragging amongst members. We don't oppress anyone. Will not put announcements on all the forum pages saying we promote fragging. So don't worry.

Originally Posted by dc4

I agree with this as well, lots of other sites have paid members along with non-paid members. I visit here quite often throughout the day for my fix and would gladly contribute funds to keep things rolling smooth.

Okay. +1 on the member sponsorship.

Originally Posted by reefwars

absolutely same here

Okay. +1 on the member sponsorship.

Originally Posted by gregzz4

I would also contribute, and tried to last spring, but that's not going to fix this issue
Having members pay a little bit to be able to sell more would only turn away sponsors
All I'm looking for here is a little format simplicity

I have turned down the idea all along is I have always wanted to keep it as opened as possible. However over time I did have pondered on this as a means to provide different types of service to members. And again if this ended up conflicting with sponsors who sell frags, it's not the member who goes.

Originally Posted by Seriak

But wouldn't that be the point. If it did turn away a few sponsors, hopefully the added contributions from the members would offset the loss so this site can remain open and fair. Now do we have enough members to even try this, I have no idea. This would best be left for canreef's board and accountant to budget expected surplus or loss with this proposed change. Maybe you could even lower the sponsor fee depending on the member contributions.

Think a poll is required for this. In return from sponsoring, anything you'd ask for specifically?

Originally Posted by reefermadness

Its obvious to stifle members from chop shopping or buying corals for the sole purpose of selling. I can agree to that....
But if its been in your system for a long time and frags are grown by you.....fair game I say.
If this still doesnt sound fair I know other forums have implemented different levels of sponsorships so even the basement small time fragger can afford to sponsor. Most people who want to do just a little side business by buying and selling or buying, fragging and selling; just might not have the income to justify the cost....so they are stuck.

Can you recommend a few sites for me to reference this idea of different levels of sponsorships? Any suggestions of how we may implement this?

Originally Posted by cuz

I don't think it has much to do with hobbiests selling frags at all. It would have been brought up in the past if it was a problem with the paying vendors.
I do think it has to do with people that are running "mini businesses" out of their house. These in my opinion are the people who make a living by undercutting lfs's prices and end up putting them out of business and a paying sponsor/vendor should have every right to get upset.
Just my opinion but guys selling frags is not the issue..

Thanks. Exactly one of the reasons for this prefix thing.

Originally Posted by Aquattro

running a chop shop without sponsorship is taking away business from the vendors that pay to advertise frags.
Not real sure how prefixes will stop it tho

It doesn't. But assist us in identifying who we need to speak to.

Originally Posted by arash53

Also I dont like the posts are not editable anymore!!!! so annoying

This is a separate issue.

Originally Posted by burgerchow

If they change the format, I learn to adapt, or go find me a new site with a better format that suits my liking.

Better yet we find a workable solution together.

Originally Posted by reefwars

like it or not the site revolves around its members , sure its a business...but its a business that wouldnt exist without its clientelle......the members. alot of canreefs members put in alot of time and effort, sure they dont need to but they do and because of this we created a community. i dont know about you but ive met just about most the members from calgary,edmonton and st.johns prob over a 100 people, im friends with alot of them its gone farther then just people on a site. we all are what makes the site and our imput is important, it helps keep the site interesting and with the amount of smart minds around here its no doubt the site will get better.......a little debate over headlines and policies are to be expected its part of expanding and growing

We appreciate the feedback, comments, and discussions. Some have indeed drove some of us crazy but a lot of good members here indeed.

Originally Posted by MKLKT

Maybe set it so that those wordy categories are picked while making the thread so it's logged for your stat taking but make it show as FS, LF, etc on the thread titles with no link? Short and sweet and makes sure you don't forget it in title.
Or single words like sale, buy, group, need?

We will go with either one. I need some time to investigate and think about it through.

Originally Posted by Seriak

I don't think it is so much that they are wordy, but more confusing.
So if I am selling hardware, I am assuming it becomes one off. If I am selling coral frags, it could be one off or recurrent. But what time frame do I use. Let's say it was 1 month, 3 months, or even 6 months since my last frag sale. At what interval is it recurrent instead of one off. I don't think the one off of excess goods prefix is really useful.
Also, are you going to be moderating people and their use of the prefixes? What if someone always uses A rather than B as a prefix even though B might have been the better choice. I think this will give you more head aches then it's going to relieve and still not clear up the problem of appeasing the vendors by trying to weed out chop shops and small business from members who are just trying to subsidize this expensive hobby.
Either way, I still like the idea of implemementing a member contribution tool. You just have to make it clear that the contribution is a donation and does not give you any say in the operation of the site.

Good points about the time frame and confusing aspects. You shouldn't have to if it's being done naturally and not in an abusive manner. But I see how it may still come across as such.

Titus