New Pisces Location

[sphelps]

If we removed all traffic laws would people drive safely? Would the number of accidents decrease? People need laws and regulations to form a society, it's part of evolution. You want to back to the stone age that's fine but I'm more than happy here with the way things are and are continuing to go. Just because I support the government by no means does that make me a communist. It makes no sense that someone that is happy in there society should move elsewhere, so take your break if that's what you need.

Yes I have a salt tank but I try and do things responsibly although I'll be the first too admit the hobby really has no positive results on the environment. It's pure entertainment and I'm fine with that. I'm also fine with many pet stores selling dogs and other animals as many do things properly but I don't think it's right for Joe to breed animals in his yard for profit when there's an overpopulation and many dogs and cats are put down on a daily bases simply because nobody will house them. Two wrongs don't make a right, just because something else isn't perfect doesn't mean we can improve on other things. I'd also gladly support almost any action that promoted responsible fish keeping, even if it was extreme at first.

And BTW studies have shown over 90% of all fish and coral imported do not live for more than a year in captivity.

[Jamieh]

I would assume the Pet Stores who have invested 100's of thousands of dollars in their stores would care if they are not permitted to sell the puppies that they have designed their store to sell. Here's and easy solution for you, make every person who breeds dogs get a licence and be inspected. I have visited many people who breed dogs and if you believe that "purebred" breeders do it better than so called "backyard" breeders you are sorely mistaken. I will ask this question for the 3rd time in this thread, how do you think banning stores who sell almost all small breed dogs will help shelters who are full of almost all med to large breed dogs??? Pet Stores selling puppies and over filled shelters are actually not that closely related no matter how the huggers try to spin it.

Originally Posted by sphelps

Won't argue that, it's obvious most people would prefer to go to the local pet shop to buy a dog. Unfortunately not all pet stores take the time to educate people on what they are getting into or take to time to be sure the animal is going to a good home so quite often the dog is given up or abandoned. If all pet stores where as good as some already are and more people pursued adoption from shelters we probably wouldn't have a problem. Yes it's a shame but as always one bad apple can spoil the bunch. If we cut out the supply it will force people to seek there pets from overcrowded shelters and adoption events. Not a perfect solution but I don't see anyone else pursuing a better one, very easy for one to say how things should be done but a different story for someone to actually do something about it.

I really don't see this as a big deal, it's worked well with positive results in other areas and the only down side is pet stores won't be able to sell puppies (or at least in same way). So who cares, plenty of pet stores do just fine without the need to sell this kind of livestock.

I'll also add that I always laugh when people get upset about the government stepping in with more regulations. Sorry but the vast majority of the population isn't anywhere near responsible or smart enough to take care of things the right way or even close to it. You don't have the right to buy whatever you want when you want, the same as you don't have the right to do whatever you want when you want. Imagine what the world would be like if you could, chaos. Our system is far from perfect but if you think you'd be better off without it go for it, nobody is stopping you.

And as for comparing to this hobby I think you're all out to lunch, I see no reason what so ever for the assumption such a by-law will also lead to banning fish sales as well. The two issues are so unrelated it's not even funny. The only thing that ties this proposed by-law to the fish hobby is this forum it's being discussed in.

[howdy20012002]

all synde remarks aside, I truly do admire and commend people who go to the pound and adopt a dog.
Personally, I have done so in the past and it didn't work out so well.
therefore, I bought a puppy from a breeder, who is not a ckc breeder, because I wanted to know the dogs background...not adopt another dog with issues.
I can assure you that I take as much care of my dogs, am concerned about the genetics and health issues of the breed and would NEVER do anything that would jeopardize my dogs health just as much as any CKC breeder.
My dogs are my kids, I just happen to breed them...and of course, like everyone that breeds dogs, the ultimate goal is money..even the CKC breeders..if not they would be giving their dogs away.
not all "back yard breeders" are bad.
just having a piece of paper from the CKC doesn't make you an expert or a better breeder.
anyways, I don't see this discussion going anywhere but in a circle, lets agree to disagree.

Neal

[sphelps]

Originally Posted by Jamieh

I would assume the Pet Stores who have invested 100's of thousands of dollars in their stores would care if they are not permitted to sell the puppies that they have designed their store to sell. Here's and easy solution for you, make every person who breeds dogs get a licence and be inspected. I have visited many people who breed dogs and if you believe that "purebred" breeders do it better than so called "backyard" breeders you are sorely mistaken. I will ask this question for the 3rd time in this thread, how do you think banning stores who sell almost all small breed dogs will help shelters who are full of almost all med to large breed dogs??? Pet Stores selling puppies and over filled shelters are actually not that closely related no matter how the huggers try to spin it.

Yeah like I said before I would prefer if things could be done that way, if someone had that petition I'd be happy to sign it.
I don't think pure bred breeders are better than non pure breeders but "good" breeders have different goals than others but it's hard to tell and there are way too many out there which is why I support the bylaw. Also I've seen plenty of big bred dogs at pet stores, not all stores are the same and not all have the same principals which is part of the problem but the biggest problem is the source not the distribution.

Also you take a risk with any investment, sometimes it pays off other times it doesn't. If the by-law passes it'll be a result of the majority agreeing to it so it's not just a few "huggers", it's society taking a stand and doing something, might be ideal but like I keep saying better than nothing.

[saltcreep]

Originally Posted by sphelps

Won't argue that, it's obvious most people would prefer to go to the local pet shop to buy a dog. Unfortunately not all pet stores take the time to educate people on what they are getting into or take to time to be sure the animal is going to a good home so quite often the dog is given up or abandoned. If all pet stores where as good as some already are and more people pursued adoption from shelters we probably wouldn't have a problem. Yes it's a shame but as always one bad apple can spoil the bunch. If we cut out the supply it will force people to seek there pets from overcrowded shelters and adoption events. Not a perfect solution but I don't see anyone else pursuing a better one, very easy for one to say how things should be done but a different story for someone to actually do something about it.

You seem to assume that all the potential dog purchasers are going to magically get their animals from shelters. You also seem to assume that BYB and individuals selling dogs are a much better source for them than pet retail stores.

Why does the proposal not target the backyard breeder? Why does the proposal not make it illegal to advertise a dog for sale in the newspaper or online? If it's good for a legal business to have this ban in place, should it not be the same for everyone else?

Originally Posted by sphelps

I really don't see this as a big deal, it's worked well with positive results in other areas and the only down side is pet stores won't be able to sell puppies (or at least in same way).

Based on what? What stats prove this has helped?

Originally Posted by sphelps

And as for comparing to this hobby I think you're all out to lunch, I see no reason what so ever for the assumption such a by-law will also lead to banning fish sales as well. The two issues are so unrelated it's not even funny. The only thing that ties this proposed by-law to the fish hobby is this forum it's being discussed in.

That is where I'm afraid to say you are simply wrong. What I am saying is that if it is this easy to ban dog sales based on emotion and ethical reasons, why would it not be easy to ban marine ornamental sales from stores too? It's not a big leap. As I have stated, the City of Richmond has already gone on record by saying that they may look at sales of other animals in pet retail stores. The City of Vernon has had proposed legislation put forward banning marine ornamentals.

If someone had the will, I'm sure it could easily be done for marine ornamentals in some sort of fashion.

[Slick Fork]

Originally Posted by saltcreep

You seem to assume that all the potential dog purchasers are going to magically get their animals from shelters. You also seem to assume that BYB and individuals selling dogs are a much better source for them than pet retail stores.

Why does the proposal not target the backyard breeder? Why does the proposal not make it illegal to advertise a dog for sale in the newspaper or online? If it's good for a legal business to have this ban in place, should it not be the same for everyone else?



Based on what? What stats prove this has helped?



That is where I'm afraid to say you are simply wrong. What I am saying is that if it is this easy to ban dog sales based on emotion and ethical reasons, why would it not be easy to ban marine ornamental sales from stores too? It's not a big leap. As I have stated, the City of Richmond has already gone on record by saying that they may look at sales of other animals in pet retail stores. The City of Vernon has had proposed legislation put forward banning marine ornamentals.

If someone had the will, I'm sure it could easily be done for marine ornamentals in some sort of fashion.

Backyard breeders and individuals selling dogs are much tougher to go after. Also, people have to actively look for these people. Pet stores with puppies on the other hand are much more open to impulse shoppers. As I mentioned above, if someone has to spend some effort looking for a place to buy an animal then you increase the chance that they are at least thinking about their purchase.

I can't think of a situation where an individual wouldn't be better off buying a dog or cat from a reputable breeder than they would purchasing from any kind of pet store. Ultimately it would be great to go after irresponsible breeders but it's not a practicle thing to do right now.

As far as it spreading to Marine ornamental fish I don't see it going there. Stray cats and dogs are a huge community problem. They either end up in the pound waiting to be destroyed or they roam around towns creating a mess and possibly attacking people. I've never heard of a stray clownfish mauling a toddler or costing cities thousands of dollars to impound and then destroy them.