Show Us Your LED Tanks

[Dez]

I just use cheap China MH bulbs - 3 years worth for just over $100 (9 x 250 watt halides)

[Skimmerking]

Originally Posted by Dez

I just use cheap China MH bulbs - 3 years worth for just over $100 (9 x 250 watt halides)

Dez how are they working out for you what are the par readings like and what are the 10K's like are they white or the 14K are they dark looking

[StirCrazy]

oh so many and where do I start.. sphelps, I am not even sure if it is worth it with you as you are a die hard anti-LED person anyways but

as for the original poster and a 100 gal, doesn't matter as for my example I said we would use brads tank.

Originally Posted by sphelps

OP was based on 100 gallons, and how do you get enough LEDs, drivers and heat sink to replace 1200W of halide plus supplemental for $1200? That's more than 200 LEDs which will cost over $2000 with basic drivers and a heatsink. Also 300W of LED will not replace 1200W of halide plus supplemental, they aren't that efficient. And supplemental is an option, you could run 14-20K halides and be satisfied, if you added supplemental to 10K halides you would need even more LEDs to compensate..

sorry I did make a little mistake. its actualy 432 watts of LED so I have to add 13% to the power usage. I changed the current I am going to drive them at. you know what.. lets add another 48 LEDs and setup so i'll take it up to 1600 bucks for you and it will be about 576 watts so now were running at 1/3 the power so the actual 8 bucks a month I used in the example so power costs are actual to my example now as I over estimated the Led usage to start as for efficiency.. the best MH is about 88 lumin/watt LEDs are now getting close to 150 lumin/watt now as for 300- 500 watts of LED replacing 1200 watt of MH.. actualy easy. you don't think you getting any where near the full 1200 watts of light into that tank do you? I would hazord to guess at most your getting a 75% efficiency of light transfer even with a very good reflector. and that is a very generous guess. with LEDs you are getting 100% of the light into the tank. when they start making MH bulbs that only shine on one side then well be revisiting this one

Originally Posted by sphelps

Of course the bigger you go the more money you'll save and the shorter the payback but put your application on the 100gallon size range as requested .

yes and no.. the money value gets bigger but the % should remain simular

Originally Posted by sphelps

As for a chiller, it's a moo point, I've always ran halides and never used one.

good for you.. so have I and I found the problems were from not having a chiller. where you live in your house you may not need one.. do you have central air, do you have low humidity? if you have high humidity remember the heat transfer due to evaporation is going to suck.

Originally Posted by sphelps

Lastly if you compare pricing over the lifespan of the LEDs then you must include the cost of replacing all LEDs after 11 years.

nope, cuz at the 50,000 hours the LEDs are rated to only lose 15-20% of there output with no color change.. LEDs lose that during the break in so realy you could keep on using the LEDs for a long time after this

Originally Posted by sphelps

There is of course big potentials for saving with LEDs but not so much with the average size tank, you will still save money but it can take a few years before you break even which is simply something to think about and be aware of. If someone is setting up a 90 gallon tank and wants to use LEDs with the intent to save money then they better make sure they will be keeping the tank long enough to make it worth while. As for you guys with 300+ gallon tanks, yes I get it.

I do a comparason for the 30 gal I am building for you after I take the kids to school

Steve

[sphelps]

I'm not anti LED, I run LEDs right now on a nano and I'm considering LEDs on my 100 gallon. I just look at things from both sides rather than forming bias opinions and examples to prove a point. You need 1 LED for every 12 square inches, 3 400W halides can easily light a 9 foot x 3 foot area with the right reflectors and you could keep anything you want under that. You would need 324 LEDs to replace that and that's 900W. So it's all on how you look at it and how you compare, very easy to come up with bias examples to support either side. Here's another one:

Reflector design for reef aquariums has improved considerably allowing for more efficient use of light. With these reflectors we can now light reef aquarium with fewer lamps, get deeper light penetration over larger areas. As an example, I am currently lighting my 500G reef aquarium (84"LX48"WX30"D) with just 3 400W metal halide lamps in Lumenarc reflectors with no supplemental lighting.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2009/1/review
That tank will require on the low side 1 LED per 15sqin meaning close to 270 LEDs or 810W

I think it's just hilarious how some people worship LEDs like it's the second coming of Christ, they just simply aren't as good as some people seem to think. Yes they are a good option but certainly not the only one or always the best.

I'm not trying to support or not support LEDs, OP asked about LEDs for a 100 gallon, since I'm considering the same thing and have experience with almost all forms of lighting I simply stated the saving will not be "huge" and it may not be worth while if the tank won't be kept for long term and if the goal is better color for SPS.

Steve, do you even currently run an LED setup on one of your tanks? Has anyone run an LED fixture for 11 years and compared PAR ratings?

[Aquattro]

I think the overall tone of the topic is that nobody is really sure..ok, they look pretty, they can do lightning storms and adjust color a bit. But my primary objective is to grow the blueist and purplist corals I can, long term. I don't believe that LEDs can do that (yet?). Also, the cost over five years, for new lighting setups may be beneficial over five years, but I couldn't afford a LED fixture up front, even if it's going to save me money in the long term. I can however afford 300/yr for bulbs over the next five years without a problem. It's the same principle of my mortgage, I'd save tons if I had that kind of cash
I have run 400w radiums for years, and continue to do so. I can find years worth of awesome tanks running the same config, so I know that these do the job I need done. LED, at this point, is still a lot of speculation on what MAY be a good lighting system 4 or 5 years down the road.
No lighting system is the best for every application, so one needs to decide what is best for their application, and for me, the MHs are the system of choice. Maybe it costs me more over 5 years, but so what? This isn't a budget hobby, and for my money, I know what I'm getting in terms of light. It's tried and true. 5 years from now, I may look at LED when it's affordable by the common peasant, but for now, to me anyway, it's a rich man's lighting experiment!!

[Palmer]

This is probably a dumb question but I have three little LED light fixtures (Robot LED IQ3) that I use for a nano and within a month on one of them 3 of the 12 lights just stopped working (3 in a row.) One of my fears of going to LED's for my 120 G someday is that I get an expensive commercial system (Vertex etc) and there is so many more parts to break on it. I hate hassle's and having to deal with manufcturers etc. With my Sunlight Maristar MH T5 combo I know it could break too but it just seems to me it would be alot easier to take care of and less opportunity for something to malfunction (just in sheer number of parts and complexity)....?

[StirCrazy]

Originally Posted by sphelps

I'm not trying to support or not support LEDs, OP asked about LEDs for a 100 gallon, since I'm considering the same thing and have experience with almost all forms of lighting I simply stated the saving will not be "huge" and it may not be worth while if the tank won't be kept for long term and if the goal is better color for SPS.

Steve, do you even currently run an LED setup on one of your tanks? Has anyone run an LED fixture for 11 years and compared PAR ratings?

the rating for 50,000 hours is right from the cree data sheet, as is the drop off rating for MH's the reason for the drop off in MH is due to the gas and rare metals inside being subjected to the heat inside the bulb. I was looking at the specks for the MH we use int he arena which last longer than the bulbs we use on the tank and they have a 60% dropp off after 20,000 hours and believe me I can tell looking at them as there are a bunch we need to change haha. the rating for the cree is something like 15% after 50,000 hours and because there is no gas or rare earth metals that are being heated and vaporized over and over there is also no color change. also running the new crees at 700mA instead of 1000, or even the rated 1500mA extends the life even longer.

as for running them 11 years I doubt it but I do know street light using high power LEDs have been around for about that so I suspect that the manufactures know what the actual drop off is as it only takes 5 years at 24/7 to get to 50000 hours.

like you I have run the full gambit of lighting, spent over 10K doing it on my 90 gal. wish I didn't but 10 years ago there was no info on lighting.

for the record I am a MH guy, I think T5s are way over rated but good for supplementing color, But I have been playing with Leds for about 5 years maybe more now but for the purpose of moonlighting and supplemental color as the powerful ones were just to expensive until recently.

now for a 30 gal tank (which I am putting together now although it will be a very slow build, as I have to insulate, drywall and heat my shop first) LEDs make way more sense.

this tank will be a SPS high light requirement tank.

the metal halide way I am looking at two fixtures at 250 watt each. I could get away with one, but from experience with my 90 gal and my PAR meter even using a good reflector looses a lot of light at the edges and I find the PAR drop off is significant enough outside of the 20 inch square. to even this out you have to raise the light farther which also drops the overall intensity. so in order to get the levels I want I am looking at two fixtures which will give me about 400 PAR on the tank bottom.

Also I will require a 12" box on top of the tank to enclose the fixture and prevent light spillage. kinda looks funny on a smaller tank

I also like a color in between 10K and 14K so MH bulbs alone don't cut it..

so a decent MH setup from J&L is 312 each x 2 is 622.00
to add 2 DIY T5 bulbs, standoffs, ballast and reflector is 170.00 granted most will be satisfied with 1 MH so for this example we will use 1. so 311.00 plus 170 = 481.00 plus what ever it costs to make you canopy.

if you want to go with a sleek fixture and have a open top like the LED will give me then you are looking at 583 for a 24" fixture with one 250 watt mh and two 24" t5s

for me to do LED for my tank I can get a 48 Ultra Premium LED DIY Kit with Dimmable Drivers for 460 plus 80 for the heat sink, so 540.00 all together. granted I have to build it. and we can add a little more to make it look sweet (like building a hood)

Now this set up with 40 degree optics will also give me PAR levels of 400 on the bottom of my tank.

so the initial purchase on the first MH setup is 60 bucks cheaper and the second MH is more expensive.

power consumption on the MH setup is going to be about 420 watts for a magnetic M80 ballast which I like better because of the higher outputs or about 350 watts for a fancy electronic ballast model plus the T5s so say about 70 watts so 490 or 420.

for the LED set up the power consumption with be about 146.88 watts so a little over 1/3rd of the electronic ballast option.

now the subjective parts. my preferred combo is AB 10K 250 watt SE with uri super actinic VHO the 13K of the ab's plus the URI VHO give a color that is simply unbeatable and the power to match, but the AB bulbs are 180 each. so now my MH set up is going to increase by 100 for a 1MH set up to 200 for a 2 bulb set up but if you like the look of other bulbs that are cheaper then thats a mute point. and I will use 80 buck bulbs as an average for this comparison.

so 11 years changing bulbs once a year for the MH setup is going to be
1430.00 assuming all bulbs last 1 year even the T5s
so now total costs for hardware is

MH 1911.00
LED 540.00

in my case the LEDs save me money before I turn them on, which for a small tank make it more desirable in a small single tank it will take 1 bulb change to make the LEDs cheaper.

lets talk about pros and cons on a small volume tank (say under 50 gal)

PROs

MH
proven track record and the power to grow anything well.
simple to buy and install
wide selections of bulbs

LEDs
proven track record up to 3 years in Canada and US is common, longer in Europe and Asia.
no radiant heat
any color combination you want changeable at whim.
lighting effects from gradual dimming to rock shows able to be made by adding a 70 buck PC controller like and adrunio setup.
directed narrow spread light so light is only where you want it.

CONs

MH
have to change bulb to change color
lots of radiant heat into water
large enclosure/hood required to contain light

LEDs
expensive for a ready made solution, cheaper if you have the skill to build yourself
shorter track record than MH, but still longer than T5's

one thing I haven't mentioned is actual electricity costs. BC has one of the lowest power costs in north America so on the example tank the difference might be only 8 bucks a month in power consumption but imagine what it might be in California?

another thing to note is actual power requirements to the tank area.. especially on a larger tank. how many circuits do you need for your MH lighting. even on my 30 gal in the example with the two 250 watt MH I will need two 15 amp circuits to run it. if I go with the LED I can run the whole tank on 1 circuit.

another thing that is a huge huge concern on a small tank that I haven't gotten into is heat. one 250 watt MH on a 30 gal tank is going to make a lot of heat and in most cases will require a chiller. so the cost of this plus the power to run it should be taken into account also.

Finlay I am not pushing LEDs only stating the opinions I have formulated over 5 or more years of tinkering with them, and especially from my research in the last year and a bit on the high power LEDs like the Cree.
they just make sense.. to many pros and to many savings.. it just to bad that instead of a 100% mark up that they companies who are making decent fixtures are doing anywhere from a 500 to a 1000% mark up over the cost to make them.

Steve