How to automatic mixing water

[sphelps]

Originally Posted by golf nut

Curious as to why you leave some undissolved?

I agree that supersaturation is the solution to an economical top off design but a number of questions have been raised and it would be interesting to understand how many of the questions are valid, usually we mix batches of salt well ahead of when we do changes, some say this is needed to allow all chemicals to mix thoroughly,can we take a cup of salt, mix and serve immediately with no adverse effects?


Liquid handling isn't rocket science, I use proportionalizer valves every day and they work fine, precipitation is another issue in premixes as I am told, which could lead to other problems, removing a known amount daily and replacing the same volume appears to be less constructive as doing larger batches fewer times... true false?

speaking of liquid handling.......http://www.wimp.com/beerscup/

Ensuring some salt always remains undissolved insures the salt solution is at max saturation and with constant temperature you can be sure the the salinity of the make up is consistent (max saturation at given temp). You could also in theory measure the salinity and keep it constant however it can be difficult to measure salinity of saturated saltwater and it's easier to just simply look for undissolved salt. It makes other options easier to employ as well. This is of course only important without the use of controllers, a controller eliminates the need to maintain constant salinity in make up water.

Some salts seem to require longer mixing times but I've used many salts that mix clear almost immediately and I've added cups of salt directly to sumps many times while preforming water changes without any adverse effects. Other peoples results may vary but I've never really pre-mixed saltwater ahead more than a few hours or so, typically I mix new water at the same time as I'm removing old water.

In the automated systems I've used and setup in the past I've always put importance on the less more often approach for stability. The systems would usually change a smaller percentage daily rather than a larger amount weekly or even monthly. This could very well be an important part of the systems I've previously described.

[wolf_bluejay]

Originally Posted by sphelps

Ensuring some salt always remains undissolved insures the salt solution is at max saturation and with constant temperature you can be sure the the salinity of the make up is consistent (max saturation at given temp). You could also in theory measure the salinity and keep it constant however it can be difficult to measure salinity of saturated saltwater and it's easier to just simply look for undissolved salt. It makes other options easier to employ as well. This is of course only important without the use of controllers, a controller eliminates the need to maintain constant salinity in make up water.

The chemist in me really really cringed at this. Saturating the salt water mix is bad idea.
This would work IF we were only using one salt, but the mix is just that, a mix. All the different chemicals that make up our fairly expensive salt do not saturate at the same levels.
This saturation is used sometimes to purify (removed unwanted salts) in many production chemicals. The NaCl would be almost the highest solubility. So you end up with just mostly NaCl and almost all the calcium and trace minerals would be what would precipitate out of solution.


Think of it this way -- if you dumped a whole lot of salt mix and pushed it to saturation, separated the precipitate out, add more salt mix and repeat -- you would have some expensive NaCl without much else in it.

[golf nut]

Originally Posted by wolf_bluejay

The chemist in me really really cringed at this. Saturating the salt water mix is bad idea.
This would work IF we were only using one salt, but the mix is just that, a mix. All the different chemicals that make up our fairly expensive salt do not saturate at the same levels.
This saturation is used sometimes to purify (removed unwanted salts) in many production chemicals. The NaCl would be almost the highest solubility. So you end up with just mostly NaCl and almost all the calcium and trace minerals would be what would precipitate out of solution.

So how would you make a good solution that could be handled ?

[golf nut]

Originally Posted by wolf_bluejay

The chemist in me really really cringed at this. Saturating the salt water mix is bad idea.
This would work IF we were only using one salt, but the mix is just that, a mix. All the different chemicals that make up our fairly expensive salt do not saturate at the same levels.
This saturation is used sometimes to purify (removed unwanted salts) in many production chemicals. The NaCl would be almost the highest solubility. So you end up with just mostly NaCl and almost all the calcium and trace minerals would be what would precipitate out of solution.


Think of it this way -- if you dumped a whole lot of salt mix and pushed it to saturation, separated the precipitate out, add more salt mix and repeat -- you would have some expensive NaCl without much else in it.

This is a real question, I respect your expertise, what would be a better method?

[sphelps]

Originally Posted by wolf_bluejay

The chemist in me really really cringed at this. Saturating the salt water mix is bad idea.
This would work IF we were only using one salt, but the mix is just that, a mix. All the different chemicals that make up our fairly expensive salt do not saturate at the same levels.
This saturation is used sometimes to purify (removed unwanted salts) in many production chemicals. The NaCl would be almost the highest solubility. So you end up with just mostly NaCl and almost all the calcium and trace minerals would be what would precipitate out of solution.


Think of it this way -- if you dumped a whole lot of salt mix and pushed it to saturation, separated the precipitate out, add more salt mix and repeat -- you would have some expensive NaCl without much else in it.

Yes this was my original concern with the method as well. However as mentioned I tested it long term on a reef tank with good success. I did not experience any precipitate and the levels in the display remained as consistent as the previous method of manually mixing and changing water.

When you think about it, it's no better or worse than how water is traditionally changed. Most people don't mix a full bucket of salt at once to insure optimal levels. Instead they grab a few scopes here and there which can result in different levels each time.

[donlite]

What I have set at this point is very simple. I have 2- 30 Gallon drums (coke sells used drums for about $20). One is filled with fresh water and is connected to a float switch in my sump. The other tank has saltwater in it. I use one water lifting pump for the top off and 2 pumps for the water change. The water change pumps turn on and off together throughout the day. The problem is that the 2 pumps must have the same flow rate. I checked them and they are almost the same. I also have a second float switch that turns all the pumps off if something stays on or off. It is not a perfect system but it seems to work.

[sphelps]

Originally Posted by donlite

What I have set at this point is very simple. I have 2- 30 Gallon drums (coke sells used drums for about $20). One is filled with fresh water and is connected to a float switch in my sump. The other tank has saltwater in it. I use one water lifting pump for the top off and 2 pumps for the water change. The water change pumps turn on and off together throughout the day. The problem is that the 2 pumps must have the same flow rate. I checked them and they are almost the same. I also have a second float switch that turns all the pumps off if something stays on or off. It is not a perfect system but it seems to work.

Yeap a very common method and works well for many people. With almost any system you'll still need to check salinity and make adjustments. Even systems with conductivity probes I still found the calibration/set points required slight adjustment every few weeks.

Rather than matching two pumps I find the use of float switches to remove and replace a consistent amount of water takes a lot of the guess work out.

[golf nut]

Originally Posted by sphelps

Rather than matching two pumps I find the use of float switches to remove and replace a consistent amount of water takes a lot of the guess work out.

Would a double stage cylinder be a better choice if it could be produced inexpensively?what volume would you need to move?

[sphelps]

Originally Posted by golf nut

Would a double stage cylinder be a better choice if it could be produced inexpensively?what volume would you need to move?

Not sure what you mean, can you explain? There is of course is a ton of different methods to remove and replace a consistent amount of water, I just mentioned one that I've used before.

[donlite]

In the end all I used was 2 aqua lift pumps and a 30 gallon tank from coke. The salinity is dead on. They turn on for a few minutes every hour and thats it. I have to use 2 pumps because if I drain first the 3rd aqua lift pump (for water top off, fresh water) will start up.It works very well but make sure the tubes do not fall out of the tank. I water top offed my floor for about 2 hours