BioPellets with Vodka Dosing - Your Thoughts

[kien]

Wow how many liters of pellets are you running in total now?

It almost seems to me like both methods are going to compete with one another for nutrients, thus reducing the full potential of both? I read up in this last night on the zeovit forum and even within the "I'm trying pellets with zeo" thread there doesn't seem to be too many people doing it. For those that are experimenting it doesn't seem like too many have chimed in with results.

[globaldesigns]

Originally Posted by kien

Wow how many liters of pellets are you running in total now?

It almost seems to me like both methods are going to compete with one another for nutrients, thus reducing the full potential of both? I read up in this last night on the zeovit forum and even within the "I'm trying pellets with zeo" thread there doesn't seem to be too many people doing it. For those that are experimenting it doesn't seem like too many have chimed in with results.

You really want to know, YOU REALLY WANT TO KNOW!!!!

Well, I have about 5L of pellets running, maybe 6L. The nice thing about this product, as stated, you can`t overdose like with Vodka, sugar or vinegar. The reason for this is the pellets don`t get used unless the bacteria needs/wants them and as long as the nitrates/phospates is present for them to consume. And you are correct, again not much in the way of test results out there, isn't this hobby fun!

In regards to them competing with the Zeolites, I don't know. The reason for my decision to keep it going the same, is because I haven't seen any detramental things happen, but actual the reverse, more good things. Well is that because of the Zeolites? I don't really know, it could be just a coincadense.

From what I understand, Zeolites and Pellets nurish different strains of bacteria. So will they compete, being different maybe not. Also one of the benefits of the pellets is the bacteria growth is restricted to within the reactor, they do not grow any further on live rock or other surfaces outside the reactor itself. I don't believe Zeolites are the same. Again will they compete? I don't think so, but again I could be 100% wrong here.

I think what we need is a Guru here to state why I should remove the Zeolites and explain why. I will remove them based on a reasonable explanation, but as of this morning I am keeping them in.

Please Guru's pipe in here, I want to know... Like many others.

[Myka]

Originally Posted by globaldesigns

I just think my bioload is too large maybe.

Just looking at your signature...you have 350 lbs of live rock in a 180 gallon tank? That makes me wonder if you removed some rock for better circulation you may be able to easily reduce your nutrients that way. 350 lbs of live rock is a lot of rock to be in the way of the powerheads.

Just a thought...sometimes more chemicals or more dosing isn't the answer, and is a battle you won't win.

[globaldesigns]

Originally Posted by Myka

Just looking at your signature...you have 350 lbs of live rock in a 180 gallon tank? That makes me wonder if you removed some rock for better circulation you may be able to easily reduce your nutrients that way. 350 lbs of live rock is a lot of rock to be in the way of the powerheads.

Just a thought...sometimes more chemicals or more dosing isn't the answer, and is a battle you won't win.

Good Point, but flow is pretty good. Every once in a while I will point the powerheads behind the rock, to see if anything (crud, deitris) comes out and very little does. Also my rock is well spaced out, not just piled. I have lots of caves and holes. Also, I like the landscaping... I don't have that much rock compared to others I have seen, and still have room. Lastly, if you look into the holes, back areas, you can see stringy spongy moving from the current, so I don't think that is the problem.

I am not having any algae issues whatsoever. Nothing bad like that, just trying to get SPS to color up better. And as you can see with my parameters, nothing is out of line.

Any other thoughts?

[Willito]

Just a few thoughts:
-I don't think you have a high bio load, so don't over compensate the filtration
-There is too much rocks in the tank, unless you like that sort of presentation
-You don't need that much amount of pellets to achieve the same result
-bio pellets are good at reducing nitrate and phosphate, but it won't automatically enhance coral colors. Low nitrate/phoshate is only a small part of a big equation in achieving vivid colors.
-try the opposite, feed your livestock more and leave the water a little "dirtier", maybe your water is too "clean"

[Myka]

Originally Posted by globaldesigns

I am not having any algae issues whatsoever. Nothing bad like that, just trying to get SPS to color up better. And as you can see with my parameters, nothing is out of line.

Any other thoughts?

What if you blow the powerheads at the rock? Any detritus come flying off there?

Originally Posted by globaldesigns

Water=1.025
Water Temp=80'C, this doesn't fluctuate that much
PH=8.3
ALK=7-8, based on Zeo... When I had removed the zeolites I raised it to 10-11, but now back down to 8ish
Ca=400
Mg=1350
K=400
Nitrite=0.02
Ammonia=0.15-0.2
Nitrate - I don't know, need to get another kit.

Why do you have ammonia and nitrite? What test kits do you use for each test?

I notice you don't have readings for nitrate or phosphate. Provided the "big three" (and K imo) are in check, I have found that NO3 and PO4 are very good at browning out SPS. I find the Salifert kit for nitrate is sufficient and keeping nitrate below 5 ppm is essential for good SPS coloration although I find the best coloration when nitrate is undetectable with a Salifert kit. I use a Merck high sensitivity kit for phosphate as I find anything greater than 0.15 ppm in the water will cause SPS colors to diminish. You need a high sensitivity kit to read these low levels.

Excuse me, but I don't have to read the entire thread. Are you using any sort of phosphate absorbing media? I use GFO on any SPS tanks (and at different times in non-SPS tanks). I really find it makes a huge difference in SPS coloration whether phosphate is problematic or not. Lots of GFO, and little carbon imo. I find huge amounts of carbon will reduce polyp extension on SPS. I use carbon intermittently because of this (just a day or two per week). Some people have mixed reefs with chemically aggressive corals where limited carbon use isn't possible.

Which brings up another point. Many corals are chemically aggressive; like leathers, GSP, Zoas, and Palys. The presence of these corals in an SPS system can and will diminish SPS coloration, polyp extension, and growth. Using carbon will help to absorb many chemicals released by corals, but that's a catch 22 as described above. Keeping away from some of the worst chemical fighters is a good plan, or remove them entirely.

Personally, I would ditch the Biopellets (I'm not sold on their claims). I would run GFO in a reactor. Run carbon passively and intermittently if possible. Play around with the use of Zeolites instead of Biopellets, vodka, or any other "raw" carbon dosing. I'm a stickler for reef designed products. I find the use of "raw" chemicals (calcium, sodium bicarbonate, vodka, etc) to be far inferior to reef designed products. I'm a huge fan of balling salts, which are essentially super pure raw chemicals designed for reefs with some interesting chemical engineering and secret ingredients.

HTH.

[globaldesigns]

Originally Posted by Myka

What if you blow the powerheads at the rock? Any detritus come flying off there?

Nope very clean over all, of course a bit can come off, as sand and some debri can settle, but nothing much

Originally Posted by Myka

Why do you have ammonia and nitrite? What test kits do you use for each test?

I use ELOS, so I don't cheap out on the testing, that is important. And I bought new kits, just in case some were bad and no change in results.

Originally Posted by Myka

I notice you don't have readings for nitrate or phosphate. Provided the "big three" (and K imo) are in check, I have found that NO3 and PO4 are very good at browning out SPS. I find the Salifert kit for nitrate is sufficient and keeping nitrate below 5 ppm is essential for good SPS coloration although I find the best coloration when nitrate is undetectable with a Salifert kit. I use a Merck high sensitivity kit for phosphate as I find anything greater than 0.15 ppm in the water will cause SPS colors to diminish. You need a high sensitivity kit to read these low levels.

I will go buy the phosphate, and as stated I also ran out of nitrate, so need to order more. Haven't done phasphate for awhile, as I never had a problem, so just stopped buying it. ELOS can do both high and low sensitivity, they usually come able to do both.

Originally Posted by Myka

Excuse me, but I don't have to read the entire thread. Are you using any sort of phosphate absorbing media? I use GFO on any SPS tanks (and at different times in non-SPS tanks). I really find it makes a huge difference in SPS coloration whether phosphate is problematic or not. Lots of GFO, and little carbon imo. I find huge amounts of carbon will reduce polyp extension on SPS. I use carbon intermittently because of this (just a day or two per week). Some people have mixed reefs with chemically aggressive corals where limited carbon use isn't possible.

Nope, no phosphate media, not suppose to with Pellets or with Zeo, so I have never done so. I only use 1L of carbon (Kent Reef Carbon) in a reactor and change it out every month. Again, carbon is part of the Zeo method. 1L is below what my tank is needing, probably should have 1.5L for the water volume, but keeping it at 1L.

Originally Posted by Myka

Which brings up another point. Many corals are chemically aggressive; like leathers, GSP, Zoas, and Palys. The presence of these corals in an SPS system can and will diminish SPS coloration, polyp extension, and growth. Using carbon will help to absorb many chemicals released by corals, but that's a catch 22 as described above. Keeping away from some of the worst chemical fighters is a good plan, or remove them entirely.

I see many sps tanks with zoas, like what I have without issue. So not sure this is an issue. Not sure here.

Originally Posted by Myka

Personally, I would ditch the Biopellets (I'm not sold on their claims). I would run GFO in a reactor. Run carbon passively and intermittently if possible. Play around with the use of Zeolites instead of Biopellets, vodka, or any other "raw" carbon dosing. I'm a stickler for reef designed products. I find the use of "raw" chemicals (calcium, sodium bicarbonate, vodka, etc) to be far inferior to reef designed products. I'm a huge fan of balling salts, which are essentially super pure raw chemicals designed for reefs with some interesting chemical engineering and secret ingredients.

HTH.

I won't ditch the pellets, unlike most others, I have seen great results from them. Like no cyano, algae of any sort, before them I had lots. So they do work when used properly. Which is the problem, most reefers using pellets are using them incorrectly. I was one of them also, but now I can testify how to use, based on actually having instructions from manufacturer and actual documentation of other reefers. And I do think having the Zeolites with them are enhancing things, again I have no scientific evidence, but if I see it looking good, why remove. As per Tony/Delphinus, he regretted removing his, and saw things regress when he did.

Otherwise with calcium, magnesium, etc... I don't have anything automated and control this manually. I do have a daily regime of dosing and additions of supplements. Just did my tests, and can say all is perfect as usual.

I also looked around today and will make this claim. I was running my lights for 11 hours, now things have been really cut back for the past 2 weeks. I will now say I am seeing polyp extension of SPS that never had any. This is a good thing. Also these same frags/colonies are starting to show lightening in color, again not much yet, but I am noticing areas of change. The big thing for me is POLYP EXTENSION, I like this and tells me they are much happier.

So what I am saying is light is very important, and too much light probably isn't good either, which would be my case. I will post on this as the weeks/months progress.

Also water quality continues to look impicable. It is soooooo clear, and again no algae's. So this is why I have decided not to change things. So pellets and Zeolites will remain, until such time I see really bad things, I cannot justify removing them. Yes I am a big promoter of the BioPellets, but again they have always worked on their claims. "I have no algae and cyano", and I had alot... so how can I say they don't work, they do... I just want better coral color, that is my big problem I guess. But with the light changes over the past 2 weeks, I am seeing slow changes there now also.

The reason I was asking about Vodka dosing, was I thought it may assist in coloring up of SPS, I now realize this probably won't be the case. So I have now concluded to NOT dose vodka and keep on going on what I do already and NO changes will happen to my current setup.

Thanks for all the info everyone, please feel free to voice your opinions, I love to hear them. Even if I don't use them. But I do listen, believe me.

[globaldesigns]

I also want to comment on my sandbed. I don't clean it with a sand vacumm, and if I stirred it you could see alot of brown sludge come out of it.

I had one sand sifting star and some snails. The snails (i can't remember the species, but they have light brown on the shell with white and are sand sifters also). My thinking was that the sand may be releasing nitrates/phosphates/etc, so I had bought 4 more sand sifting stars last week. I also just bought 3 more today. So now have 8 sand sifting stars, with the snails and a sand sifting shrimp. It can't hurt!!!

Plus with all those stars my sand bed is looking nice and fluffy/puffy with them going in and out of it.

[kien]

The only thing that would bother me is the fact that I wouldn't know if one or the other method is working. Sure, both zeolites and pellets could be working, but because you run both there is truly no way of telling. It could be the zeolites stripping nutrients or it could be the pellets. In the end you don't know for sure, you just have to assume.

If all other parameters are fine and you truly are running an ULNS then then I would say you should look beyond just the removal of nutrients for your unsatisfactory SPS colours. As you have already done, lighting is one factor. The inclusion of certain nutrients is another factor in a very long list of others. Heck maybe how your SPS looks now is their natural state

[Zoaelite]

Rick I think you have solved your problem if your halides were running for 11 hours a day, cut it back to 5 or 6 gradually and you should see the improvements continue. Do you add anything to the tank as far as AA goes?