HELP....Ginger has lots and lots of new puppies

[lockrookie]

fair enough my apologies not all but some of them.

[Aquattro]

Originally Posted by lockrookie

im sure those dedicated dog breeders started as back yard breeders at some point in thier lives when they first started out

just my 2 cents

I agree. Although the difference, I suspect, is the long term goal of a specific breeding program. A breeder should also be responsible for all the pups for all the years they're around. They should be willing, and in fact demand that any dog that can't be kept is returned to them. It's a standard part of a well written contract. They should also gaurantee the pup from any genetic defects at any point in the dog's life. This means a refund or replacement pup. They should be ready and willing to help all owners for the next 15 years with anything to do with the pup. Idealy they're part of a breed club or organization, dedicated to improving the breed (as an argument against Steve's comment, a breed standard as set by the kennel club is not specifically a good thing).
I have border collies, and as a breed, they should only be bred after proving themselves on stock. This is either done via full time farm work, or placing high in at least regional open class trials. Then they are evaluated for temperment, physcal characteristics, etc, before a breeding match is made. This type of commitment and ability comes from years of experience, and takes dedication to a close to full time activity. Breeding should be left to the pros.
If someone wants to become a respected responsible breeder, then they should work under the mentorship of someone who is already there.
Breeding your pet dog, simply because you can, is wrong on many levels.

I don't expect to change many minds, but people need to think a bit harder about creating life, and what will come of those lives for the next decade and a half. There are hundreds of thousands of discarded dogs in shelters all across north america, many of them a direct result of breedings just like this. and if you aren't part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

[StirCrazy]

Originally Posted by Aquattro

I dedicated to improving the breed (as an argument against Steve's comment, a breed standard as set by the kennel club is not specifically a good thing).
.

Um the kennel clubs don't set the breed standard they just adopt it. the breed standard is set by the original creator of the breed when it is reconized as a breed.

the breed standard defines what the dog is intended to do and the body make up that optimizes it for its intended purpose. a well writen standard will say how the required feature enhances the ability of a dog. you can think that a standard isn't important but the people that feel that are the ones who have dogs that don't meat the standard. are they still nice dogs.. yup, great for pets and companions. heck I am not even sure if mine meats the standard yet, from what I can tell he does or is close but I won't know till he hits his full high and weight, and gets all his coat. do I intend on showing him.. nope, I bought him as a companion/pet so I could care less.

as for guarentees it is pretty hard to find a life time one.. usaly it is a year or two, but I have seen some lifetime ones.. I goess it would depend a lot on the breed also, we got a two year one.. basicly will pay for medical up to the purchase price of the dog or replace the dog if it comes to that.

Steve

[Aquattro]

Steve, some breed standards may be ok, I can't keep track of all that stuff, but there are many breeds (GSDs come to mind) that have been ruined by the show ring and kennel clubs.
Coming from a Border Collie background, the KC is pretty much the mortal enemy of our dogs. I'll email you an article offline that goes into all the gory details.
As for gaurantees, genetic abnormalities should be covered for life. In BCs, if both parents are clear for CEA, then the pups are clear, and there should be no problem gauranteeing that. If a breeder won't, I'd questin whether the testing was done at all.

[StirCrazy]

Originally Posted by lockrookie

im sure those dedicated dog breeders started as back yard breeders at some point in thier lives when they first started out

just my 2 cents
im done and handing thread back to owner good luck with the puppies again

actualy most good breaders start out under mentorship from the breader they got there dog from, so right from square one they are reasearching genetics and matching. and also are installed with the ethics of there breadings. also another thing to look for is are they a member of the CKC, if not don't buy from them. not every member of the CKC will be perfect but if they get caught straying from the ethical standard they are removed so a long time breader that is a member of the CKC is a pretty good bet.

Steve

[Aquattro]

Originally Posted by StirCrazy

a member of the CKC is a pretty good bet.

Steve

I'm not gonna start with kennel clubs, but we're gonna have to disagree on this one
Oh, and everything else you said you copied from me. Get your own stuff

[Aquattro]

Just a quick stat, the Boston Terrier Rescue of Canada (only one of many) takes in about 70 dogs a year. This does ot count those that they have to turn away due to lack of resources. 11 of them may not get forever homes now. Just something to thik about....

[StirCrazy]

Originally Posted by Aquattro

Oh, and everything else you said you copied from me. Get your own stuff

ya, because I have a time machien and can go foreward in time read you post then come back and post it two seconds after you did

there are theings about kennel clubs that are good and bad, the bad is that they make a lot of money for a non profit organization. also there are bad kennel clubs and good ones, take the CKC for eg.. there are two, canadian and contanental.. canadian = good, contanental = bad when it comes to ethics.

the canadian does provide a valuable service in regestration and such and a lot of resorse links but they do make money off sanctioned events.

Steve

[Aquattro]

Originally Posted by rstar

Except for the fact that in this thread Neal did not ask for anyones opinions on the ethics of him breeding his dog....

Unfortunately a publicly posted thread is subject to input by anyone, it's the whole point of public posting. And let's face it, it's not the first thread that has gone on a tangent, nor the last.
And the point of my posts, as well as Deb's, is to possibly inform potential puppy buyers of the problems brought about by backyard breeders and how it impacts the future lives of all dogs, in this case the puppies being bred as well as existing Bostons sitting in rescue right now, looking for a home.
Basically, hobbyist breeding of dogs is frowned upon by serious dog lovers, for a variety of reasons, and should be left to people that have dedicated years to their breeding program, resulting in improving the breed, not supplying a market demand.
This is not to suggest that anyone is a money grabbing puppy mill, but rather that perhaps many people in this position are ill-informed on the plight of the current dog population, much of which is a direct result of backyard, although well-meaning breeders.
And as a serious dog person, when something like this gets posted publicly, you're getting my opinion, solicited or not. And if just one person reading it thinks a bit harder about whether to breed or not, or where to purchase a puppy from, then I've contributed to the solution, not the problem.

[Chaloupa]

Originally Posted by Aquattro

Unfortunately a publicly posted thread is subject to input by anyone, it's the whole point of public posting. And let's face it, it's not the first thread that has gone on a tangent, nor the last.
And the point of my posts, as well as Deb's, is to possibly inform potential puppy buyers of the problems brought about by backyard breeders and how it impacts the future lives of all dogs, in this case the puppies being bred as well as existing Bostons sitting in rescue right now, looking for a home.
Basically, hobbyist breeding of dogs is frowned upon by serious dog lovers, for a variety of reasons, and should be left to people that have dedicated years to their breeding program, resulting in improving the breed, not supplying a market demand.
This is not to suggest that anyone is a money grabbing puppy mill, but rather that perhaps many people in this position are ill-informed on the plight of the current dog population, much of which is a direct result of backyard, although well-meaning breeders.
And as a serious dog person, when something like this gets posted publicly, you're getting my opinion, solicited or not. And if just one person reading it thinks a bit harder about whether to breed or not, or where to purchase a puppy from, then I've contributed to the solution, not the problem.

Very well said.

And to the comment made "I can pretty much guarantee that very very few breeders would spend more time and attention to their dogs and puppies than what I am giving" by the OP...I am hoping this was said to indicate your dedication to your dogs rather than a slam at breeders. Most breeders I know, having worked in a very large veterinary hospital for 21 years were incredibly dedicated and loving with their litters.

This is a public forum where, just like ANY other public forum you will get the good and what you consider the bad response..there are many of us that are very passionate about people breeding animals of any kind....and with good reason. Many of us have extensive backgrounds with animals welfare and know the nasty statistics not just the cute statistics...just because all of the puppies get homes, DOES NOT mean that all those homes are going to be great, or that they are going to keep that dog, and that it will not end up in a shelter. That's where you can pray that it's a no kill shelter, and not one that has such a high turnover they can't keep them longer. Breeding dogs is about the next 16 years of each puppies life, not about selling them all and carrying on.

I do wish Ginger well...and hope that all the puppies are adopted into loving and long term households.