Vendors! Take care of the live rock!!!

[sphelps]

Originally Posted by StirCrazy

It is very important.. if you have a good skimmer on your rock curing tank the vendor can save a lot of money in waterchanges and it is more efficent than doing the waterchanges also as it is continuiously removing the "crap" where the waterchanges will let the levels build up then gone. also there is a much higher survival rate for bugs when you use a skimmer as there is less shock to them due to waterchanges and less spiking of amonia, nitrate and nitrite. Just like in our tanks the more stable the better and the common problem is that people see rock as a decoration not as one of the most important biological additions to our tank.

I don't see it that way. The water conditions in any live rock tank will fluctuate. If you fill a tank with fresh shipped rock no skimmer is going to prevent ammonia and other harsh spikes. In my mind you're better just changing the water after the rock has settled in for a while, this will be much more effective than a skimmer.
Keeping things simple could be a better alternative, simply change the water as needed. If you setup something elaborate and complicated it will take more time and money to maintain it making your rock more expensive. Plus adding a skimmer could result in the thought that there is less demand for changing water which simply isn't the case. In either case it's far from a requirement.

If you spend 3 months curing your rock before resale you're spending 3 months of additional overhead on that inventory. From a business point of view not really a good thing as the rock is now worth more than you can sell it for. Take two batches of rock from the same source, one batch fully 100% cured and sell for $10/pound, the other lightly cured and sell for $7/pound. See what sells first and you'll see why most vendors don't pay too much attention to live rock. Price out weighs quality by a long shot in live rock, people will pay more for better rock in terms of shape but not so much in how it's cured. Simply put, people who pay less complain about quality and people who pay more complain about price.

I think people just enjoy blaming LFSs in general for all their hobby related problems which in my mind is taking the easy way out. You have to deal with whats available to you and make your own decisions, you always have a choice and ignorance is a poor excuse. Educate yourselves, make your own decisions and take responsibility for your actions otherwise jump of a bridge because I told you so

[StirCrazy]

Originally Posted by sphelps

I don't see it that way. The water conditions in any live rock tank will fluctuate. If you fill a tank with fresh shipped rock no skimmer is going to prevent ammonia and other harsh spikes. In my mind you're better just changing the water after the rock has settled in for a while, this will be much more effective than a skimmer.

this is where we will have to agree to disagree, I have cured with out a skimmer and with a skimmer.. much better results with the skimmer. problem with out it is that you are still going to expose your rock to much higher levels than you would with it. the other problem is wherew is all the junk the skimmer would pull out go if you don't use one. inside the rock and will start the plugging up phase.

Originally Posted by sphelps

Keeping things simple could be a better alternative, simply change the water as needed. If you setup something elaborate and complicated it will take more time and money to maintain it making your rock more expensive. Plus adding a skimmer could result in the thought that there is less demand for changing water which simply isn't the case. In either case it's far from a requirement.

thge only way just letting your rock soak in a container and changing the water will be cheaper is if you are lazy and or only doing one batch.

you figure 1000lbs of live rock which would be a normal size order is going to need 500gal of water to be in the holding area. so this is about 2.5 buckets of salt. to properly cure rock you need to do about 4 waterchanges so say.. 10 buckets of salt. now if you use a good skimmer you could easily cut out two of thoes waterchanges saving about 5 buckets of salt. which is a good chunk of money towards a good skimmer after only one batch.

and good skimming and dosing is very much a good way to reduce the amount of water changes required.. a water changed is to clean and replace, if you keep the water clean and replace elements you are acomplishing the exact same thing... In the 7 years I ran my big tank I started off with monthly waterchanges, then bi-monthly, then a few times a year, then to once a year.. no differance and everything thrived. now would I recomend this would out the use of a Ca reactor with good median and a good skimmer.. no.

as for water changes anyone who is doing 10% a month, or even a week and thinks they are doing good, better think again.. in order for any waterchange to do what people think they are doing you got to be going at least 50% preferably more

Originally Posted by sphelps

If you spend 3 months curing your rock before resale you're spending 3 months of additional overhead on that inventory. From a business point of view not really a good thing as the rock is now worth more than you can sell it for. Take two batches of rock from the same source, one batch fully 100% cured and sell for $10/pound, the other lightly cured and sell for $7/pound. See what sells first and you'll see why most vendors don't pay too much attention to live rock. Price out weighs quality by a long shot in live rock, people will pay more for better rock in terms of shape but not so much in how it's cured. Simply put, people who pay less complain about quality and people who pay more complain about price.

Um.. you need to re read.. that is what I said . that was only what I would like to do but as I said in the post it is not reasonable for a store due to the investment and time vs. proffit per sq^ft.

as for people like to blame there LFS.. up totaly agree, but also know there is a lot of bad advice from LFS out there and that a lot of people do look to there LFS as knowing what to do.. they are the professionals in this area are they not? so if you see what they are doing and there tanks look nice and you don't know about the 10 fish/ day they take out of there tanks dead, or that they lose 50% of there corals how do you know any better. The stores don't worry to much as these are losses and the amount of loss is small.. that coral some places are charging 110.00 for cost the store 5 to 10 bucks, most fish that are 80 to 150.. 5 to 15 bucks. plus shipping, but at 50 bucks shipping on a box that you can get 10 to 18 corals in that isn't realy much. now rock is a weird one as there is no loss to the store and they put more of a mark up on it that on the corals and fish, but the rock doesn't die.. and if it does then they just put it in with some new rock and bring it back so rock is a huge profit maker.

I don't need to see a store with the best products, lowest prices, ect.. what I would like to see is a store with knowalgeable mature staff that has exelent customer service and gives very good advice, heck even lets you know the different ways there are to skin a cat and lets you know where to find the information so tyou can make an informed discision. or even will engage in a discussion of a peticular method. prices,, they can be a little more as people value good, friendly, customer service and knowlage and that will compensate for a little higher price as long as it isn't outragious. I have though a couple times about opening a store myself, but in victoria the market wouldn't suppot it and I don't think there is anough of a market in kamloops either for a salt water only store.

Steve

[sphelps]

Originally Posted by StirCrazy

this is where we will have to agree to disagree, I have cured with out a skimmer and with a skimmer.. much better results with the skimmer. problem with out it is that you are still going to expose your rock to much higher levels than you would with it. the other problem is wherew is all the junk the skimmer would pull out go if you don't use one. inside the rock and will start the plugging up phase.

Agreed to disagree. Curing rock in the aquarium is somewhat different, you don't typically change more than 50% of the water at one time. If you cured your rock in a separate container (like many people do) you could simply change 100% of the water time and time again until you were satisfied. Your water volume would be small in comparison to the amount of rock you have or compared to your display tank volume. In such case I see little need for a skimmer and don't think it would be worth using. Curing rock in your display is different and could certainly benefit from a skimmer but this isn't the best way to cure rock.

Originally Posted by StirCrazy

you figure 1000lbs of live rock which would be a normal size order is going to need 500gal of water to be in the holding area. so this is about 2.5 buckets of salt. to properly cure rock you need to do about 4 waterchanges so say.. 10 buckets of salt. now if you use a good skimmer you could easily cut out two of thoes waterchanges saving about 5 buckets of salt. which is a good chunk of money towards a good skimmer after only one batch.

and good skimming and dosing is very much a good way to reduce the amount of water changes required.. a water changed is to clean and replace, if you keep the water clean and replace elements you are acomplishing the exact same thing... In the 7 years I ran my big tank I started off with monthly waterchanges, then bi-monthly, then a few times a year, then to once a year.. no differance and everything thrived. now would I recomend this would out the use of a Ca reactor with good median and a good skimmer.. no.

I would argue a much smaller volume for that amount of rock. In addition you would need a skimmer rated for an equivalent of 1000 gallons to hand that much dead rock if not bigger. The cost of the skimmer, it's power consumption and maintenance would likely not pay for itself in a long time. Salt is fairly cheap to a vendor and could always use water changed from other systems for the live rock tank. Also no skimmer will replace water changes nor will it ever be as effective as removing nutrients and contaminants than the good old water change. I can guarantee you that any skimmer on a live rock tank will be more trouble than it's worth. Plus the skimmer seems to be the easy way out, using a skimmer and doing less water changes may be cheaper depending on how you look at it but certainly not better than changing all the water frequently. In terms of quality what is best? I would bet many vendors through little skimmers on there live rock tanks which are more decorative than anything, with the main purpose to impress customers.

Originally Posted by StirCrazy

Um.. you need to re read.. that is what I said . that was only what I would like to do but as I said in the post it is not reasonable for a store due to the investment and time vs. proffit per sq^ft.

That wasn't really referring to your post, just a general statement. However while on the subject if you agree a vendor can't possibly keep rock for long periods of time how could a skimmer possibly benefit such a system? Skimmers require time to remove nutrients while a simple 100% change removes them all in one go. Seems like a better solution in my mind. Skimmers simply aren't designed to remove large amounts of nutrients that quickly, they are steady state machines.


People at LFS are not professionals by any means in fact I don't know anyone who is a professional in that particular industry. How do you define professional?? Profit margins aren't large enough to employ such "professionals", you're stuck with minimum wage type employees who can bag a fish but certainly aren't experts. The only exception we get these days are the small chain stores which are run by the actual owner who tend to be very knowledgeable, however even with these stores it's only a matter of time before extra staff is brought in.

Of course we don't need the best of everything and that was certainly not my point. My point was that no store can be the best at everything and different stores will tend to focus more on certain things and not on others. This is why not all vendors will focus too much time and effort on live rock.

[fishoholic]

Originally Posted by BlueWorldAquatic

Not ALL vendors do that, I can attest to that and any of my customers will also agree as 90% of all the rock in the store is fair game to the customers. I can speak the same of some of the other LPS in the area.


I have seen the large holding tanks full of rock also like all of you.

That is why we try to keep our rock nice and healthy. Actually most of ours will be cured and clean when it is ready for sale. We have ours mainly in with the systems where we have our acclimized fish in.

We have 2 120 gal tanks with skimmers and heaters taking care of the "New" rock where we can actually cure them before they are introduced into our marine population.

Ken - BWA

Glad you spoke up because I was going to say Blue World takes good care of their LR.

Originally Posted by sphelps

Let me guess, best products, best staff and lowest prices?? Now that's funny Good luck with that!

I believe Blue world has done just that, they really do have great staff, good products and great prices. So trust me it can be done

[sphelps]

Originally Posted by fishoholic

I believe Blue world has done just that, they really do have great staff, good products and great prices. So trust me it can be done

Nice poke but I'm taking best products at the best prices?? Good and great do not equal best. I'm sure the prices are good but I would bet stuff can be found cheaper elsewhere. You can't have the best of everything, sorry but it can't be done, at least not for long anyway.

Our LFS here has great products, service and prices too but some people still complain because one particular item is $1 cheaper at J&L.

[pastout]

well people who complain about that are just someone who is going to bitch about everything. Honestly if that’s all your trying to use as your argument

Nice poke but I'm taking best products at the best prices?? Good and great do not equal best

like come on do you actually expect them to check every store in every province to try and make sure they have the lowest price. I mean your taking a fish store not Wal-Mart.

I mean all is your doing in dissecting a statement. All a business can do is be competitively priced for the market. and carry a good selection of equipment or great selection. because hey not everyone wants to spend 1300$ on a bubble king protein skimmer and just wants a cheaper one. These people are running a business and I think there are a few out there who do a good job and I mean it would be stupid to go into a store and be like how could you mark things up. that would be like your boss saying to you hey um I know I pay you 40$ an hour but I mean I think you could live of 12$ an hour that’s fair right?

[StirCrazy]

Originally Posted by sphelps

Our LFS here has great products, service and prices too but some people still complain because one particular item is $1 cheaper at J&L.

your always going to have thoes people.. I have a friend who has never paid full price for anything.. I don't know how he does it but he gets discounts from anystore he goes to.

my personal theory on mail order from say J&L is that if I am paying so much plus 25 for shipping when I go into the LFS as long as it is under the total I would have paid with shipping I buy it there.. that allows the LFS to have prices that are a little higher and still get my business.

Steve

[Scythanith]

Originally Posted by Myka

The point of this thread was to start a discussion on live rock not business plans...

Originally Posted by Myka

Why do vendors always get in a bunch of live rock from overseas plop it in a holding tank, and not give a popcorn fart if the ammonia spikes to 4 ppm?? Most vendors don't even have a skimmer on the holding tank, some don't put a heater in it, and some use tap water!!! Like seriously Mr Vendor, don't you know you're charging a PREMIUM for this stuff which happens to be the most important filtration "device" we will invest in often spending more money on rock than our skimmer, and you're not taking any procedures to promote a HEALTHY, LIVELY, CLEAN rock??

One day, I'm going to have my own store...things will be different!!!!

I'm sorry but this does sound like a slam to someones business practices, not just a conversation starter. I think if you were to have a conversation with the business they'd be more than happy to supply you with exactly what you are looking for. Most people are content with "live" rock, connoisseurs want fresh rock. Just like a connoisseur wants a BK skimmer, ELOS tank, and RD DC pumps. You pay for premium goods and selection of livestock. It's nothing new.

I tend to make it to a LFS when new products arrive and buy them before they even hit a store tank. This bypasses the issue all together.

I like coffee!

Cheers

[Myka]

Ohhhhh, another Skatchie that's ripped on this. I get it now!! You guys think this thread was started in regards to a particular local vendor don't you? It's not! If anyone thinks I was talking about a specific vendor that's not the case. The original post was a general comment regarding practices I have seen in the last few years all over western Canada including some of the largest vendors in the business.

Now I understand why I got PMs from a bunch of Skatchies.

[Scythanith]

Haahaa you have it all wrong. I'm not defending any business in particular, I felt you were trying to backtrack on what you said earlier lol. Maybe you coasters are too spoiled being so near to the ocean that you don't appreciate the fact that there even is a reef shop in Skatchie as you so eloquently put it.

Its no skin off my butt for you to complain, I just think its too easy to point out how things should be in a perfect world.

I too am upset with improper light cycles, tank temperatures, flow patterns, food regimes and tank mates found in home and business tanks alike for most if not all livestock... Mobile or sessile. I'd say live rock would be on the bottom of my list for concerned husbandry. But that's just me.

...where's my americano?