cleaner wrasse

[fishoholic]

Originally Posted by justinl

alright, since my credibility is being questioned, read it yourselves.

from wetweb
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/labroide.htm

peer-reviewed journal
http://www.jstor.org/pss/3505553

wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleaner_fish

It was noted on RC and other sources that it is unlikely that these wrasses are getting all the nutrition they need from prepared foods, thus leading to their eventual demise. Two years is not long term.

you guys are basically missing (or worse, ignoring?) my main point entirely. Let's say for argument's sake that these fish were as hardy as damsels and didn't have the abysmal death rate it currently sees in this trade. It should not have been removed from the ocean in the FIRST place. These species serve a vital role in the ocean. That's why you see lines of fish waiting at a cleaner wrasse's cleaning station. That's why you see these fish, completely unafraid of large predators like groupers, swimming around inside of their mouths picking at parasites. That's why said large predators choose to be cleaned over getting an easy meal. If they weren't such an important fish on the reefs, they would get eaten quickly after venturing in to see what shark teeth look like out of curiosity. Each cleaner wrasse station is a high demand function that serves a broad area (evidenced by lines of fish waiting their turn). Take away that fish and you remove this function from said broad area, depriving hundreds of wild fish of their parasite removal. Why? So you can save a handful of fish in a glass box.

And an interesting tidbit: they don't even eat ich. A study done by Alexandra Grutter, Parasite removal rates by the cleaner wrasse Labroides dimidiatus, 1996, examined stomach content and none of the fish stomachs they found contained ich. 99.7% +/- .06% was gnathid isopods, the rest were caligid and other parasitic copepods. None were cryptocaryon (a ciliate protozoan). I could see them taking ich ectoparasites in captivity (considering there's nothing else for them to eat) but would it be enough for them either nutritionally or in sheer volume? imo, no, not unless you have a full load of fish in a 1000g tank.

Another factor to consider: would it have any real impact on ich in the tank? imo no. They'll eat the ectoparasites but ich burrows under fish scales and cannot be eaten then, nor will they be eaten in their planktonic forms or in their cyst stage in the sand. The ectoparasitic stage of ich is shortlived. They will live in the sand damn nearly indefinitely (i think it was Eric Borneman who found this out by observations of a fishless tank) so you'll basically never actually get rid of the damn things.

A better approach is other cleaners like neon gobies and cleaner shrimp, which although I understand they are hit or miss on cleaning, at least they eat other things . If you didn't stock such that you can accommodate them, tough chickens. The other solution is to not let your fish get ich. QT. Dip. Choose livestock not known to be prone to death/infection. Be proactive, not reactive (generally a good rule of thumb in this hobby).

justinl I know you're creditable and I wasn't questioning that. I know research supports your point.

My point however is that my personal experiences differ from what the research says and that people have the right to know both sides of the story in order to make an informed decision for themselves. Also it can't just be coincidence that my experiences are similar to my2rotties experiences (see below quote) and the same goes for others I know as well.

If I'm being perfectly honest, I'm not really close to the fish in the wild, whereas I have a bond with the fish in my tank. There is no way I would deprive my fish of the important cleaning service that the cleaner wrasse provides.

To me it looks like my wrasse picks off the ich cysts from my fish. I know my wrasse eats mysis and nori (and I wouldn't recommend getting one that wasn't already eating mysis or nori etc.) I don't know if he eats the ich. All I know is that he constantly picks at my fish and seemingly keeps them ich free. Before I got the wrasse I was getting close to loosing most of my tangs from the ich virus. Within 3 weeks of getting my wrasse all my tangs and other fish made full recoveries and have never had ich that bad again.

I realize cleaner wrasses are important to the fish in the wild but (perhaps being a bit selfish maybe) I believe my cleaner wrasse is equally important to the fish in my tank. Sorry for caring more for my fish in my tank then the fish in the wild but (while I wouldn't want all the cleaner wrasses in the wild to disappear) I'm not about to let my fish in my tank die from ich when I can buy a cleaner wrasse to clean them and save their lives.

FYI if I could get a neon goby or a different type of fish to clean the ich off my fish I would be all for it. But since the 2 neon gobies I tried died shortly after buying them and the cleaner wrasse I have now has been alive for about a year, I have to say (for me) the cleaner wrasse was a better choice.

This has just been my experience (and few other people I know have had luck with cleaner wrasses as well) but I'm sure there are many people who have had back luck with them too. I also wouldn't buy a cleaner wrasse that wasn't already seemingly healthy and eating mysis or nori. I agree that they wont survive in a tank off ich alone.

Sorry if I may have offended anyone but while research supports one theory my personal experiences support another and I feel that I should share my experience so others can come to their own conclusions.

Besides, look at the belly on my cleaner, does he look hungry to you? I think not I know he wont rid the tank of ich but he keeps it under control and that's good enough for me.

[IMG][/IMG]

Originally Posted by my2rotties

I'm going to get beat up for voicing my opinion, but I would never ever be without a cleaner wrasse. I went without one with this new system and when I added one almost four months ago, he became the holy grail of the tank. Fish were lining up for him to clean them off and still do to this day.

My cleaner wrasse went missing for a few hours a couple of weeks ago, and all the fish were frantically looking all over the place for the little. When he reappeared the fish all were swimming circles around him opening their mouths, waiting for cleaning.

IMO I think it is wrong to not have a cleaner wrasse in a big tank with lots of fish. I know they do not cure ich but I never see it on any of my fish anymore. My cleaner wrasse is busy cleaning my fish all day, what he cleans I am not sure of, but I feel he is essential to the health of my other fish. Any ocean photography I usually see has a cleaner wrasse cleaning the fish in the picture.

My clean wrasse eats the particles of the home made food I make for my puffer as well. He is fat for a wrasse and is growing. I can honestly say if he dies, I will replace him. My fish appreciate him and the services he does for them...

[my2rotties]

As long as I stay in this hobby, I feel my fish deserve to have a cleaner wrasse. It is just a natural and appreciated combination, it would be cruel not to give my captive fish something they have in the ocean.

I also buy strictly aqua cultured corals and I never had a problem with hardiness of cleaner wrasses... Instead of bashing me, perhaps talk to the LFS and wholesalers of fish...It is them that brings these fish in for purchase. I recall asking about ich a very long time agom and was told to get a cleaner wrasse. I was never told they were hard to keep and always died... I have never had issues with mine to have to constantly replace them.

My fish deserve a cleaner wrasse for their well being and I find them essential to the health of my tank. Perhaps I am being selfish but this is a selfish hobby to begin with.

[blueyota]

im not worried about ich as i have none....i am just looking for a good cleaner as i feel its good for the health of the fish and also keeps aggression down in the tank

[fishoholic]

Originally Posted by blueyota

im not worried about ich as i have none....i am just looking for a good cleaner as i feel its good for the health of the fish and also keeps aggression down in the tank

Well in that case I would sell the coral banded shrimp as he is most likely the one killing the cleaner shrimp (I have kept peppermint shrimp and cleaner shrimp together with out any problems for over a year, so I doubt it's him) and I would buy some more cleaner shrimp.

[MCC]

Originally Posted by blueyota

are these fish as hard to keep as people say....im thinking of getting one since my peppermint or coral banded shrimp keep killing my cleaner shrimp i put in so thinking of another route of fish cleaning...thanks

Take out your coral banded shrimp... depending on your size of tank... these things get very nasty when they grow bigger.... kill off shrimps , crabs, and even fish if they can!

[TJSlayer]

Not sure I agree with you 100% there...

I got one from a fellow reefer who shut his tank down, and he had it for almost 2 years. I have had it now for a good 6 months as well. Very active, fat and healthy.....

May just be lucky but the same could be said for copperbands, mandarines, etc. I myself lost my copperband and he was eating mysis etc, right from my hand, only had him for 2 months or so. Good one day, gone the next...

Just my 2 cents...

[saltyrigger]

Ive had mine for five and a half years. eats everything I put in tank.