SPS Tank O Death

[michika]

Originally Posted by Myka

So this rock was previously run in another system of yours I assume...? If it were my tank, especially considering it's only 24g, I would pull the rock (and sand), and replace it with different stuff from one of your other systems possibly. At this point, I think the biggest suspect would be the rock. Even if it was run in a different system before... I know you had some GHA issues in the tank previously.

I'd have a really hard time believing it was the glass. Possible...but unlikely for sure.

I would also suspect the silicone before the glass.

However, I doubt it's the glass or the silicone, as I believe if that were the issue it would affect all the corals. Honestly, I doubt it's the rock either (although that's an easy try). If I ignored all the information I know about your tank (I skimmed your journal), and was just told, "hey my softies and LPS are fine, but my SPS are dying, what's wrong?" I would immediately suspect parasites, flow, and micronutrients first. Do you know what red bugs, and AEFW look like? Have you seen them in person before? Can you test for Strontium, Iron, and Silicates? Can you take a short video clip of your tank that will show the polyps waving in the flow?

Yes I do know what AEFW and Redbugs look like. I also have a QT procedure for those things before any SPS even goes into my tank. SPS receive a dip in TMPCC, an interceptor bath, and they are inspected for flatworms.

I only have one system running at this time. All the rock that I have started out with me when I began this hobby and have moved through my various tanks, 29g, 46g, 77g, 230g, 90g, 24g, 28g. I only ever keep one system running up at once. There is no more hair algae in this system.

At this point I'm trying to find reasons not to shut down this tank permanently when my 180g goes up. The cost of switching out my rock, and a whole brandnew sand bed isn't worth it. While I would like to keep running this system, I would rather put my money into my 180g.

I don't have video capabilities, or at least I don't think my camera does. I use a Nikon D40x.

I've never tested for Strontium, Iron, or Silicates. What makes you think I should be testing them? Does something stand out about my problem that makes you think of these elements?

Originally Posted by Jason McK

Where did the glass come from when you constructed the tank? I see why you may think it was the glass.

The back and side panes came from a previous tank. The front pane and overflow box were glass I had cut for me specifically for this project. I can account for the 20g sump/fug, it was my SPS QT/dipping tank on my 230g system.

Silicone was the non-anti-fungal type made by GE. Although someone recently sent me a PM letting me know that they had seen a thread where there was something wrong with the silicone itself. From what I understand anti-fungal silicone was packaged and sold as the non-anti-fungal variety. I'm still looking into this, and waiting on a link to that thread.

[Matt]

At this point, I'd be suspicious of anything that's going into the tank; CO2, reactor media, food, carbon, supplements, salt, filter socks... If I were fighting this fight, I'd take every one of those things offline, go buy small amounts new of all the things you need to add (ca, alk, food, salt). Then I think I'd try one frag for a week or two -- something you can afford to lose -- and start adding the other stuff back in, one-a-week. I really doubt it is the rock, glass or silicone (although that's a possibility).

I know a lot of this stuff has already been discussed and perhaps cleared, but (and this is only if I were patient enough to not toss a rock through the glass), that's how I'd trouibleshoot it.

[dsaundry]

I am watching this thread with great interest as I too have a similar problem. I hope you can isolate your problem and share with all. I have talked to many fellow reefer's and had similar advise. Carbon, Magnesium, too much softies, Calcium etc. I have given up on SPS as my softies are thriving and I am ok with that. I am eventually going to try an SPS only tank and hope I have better luck. The one thing I didn't notice on your thread was does your temperature fluctuate a lot or does it stay constant? It's only a theory but I am wondering on SPS if this affects them much.

[fencer]

Myka
Catherine is a very experienced reefer. enough said about that. It is strange only your SPS's are affected. I would have expected your clams to be affected too. When I saw the tank there was plenty of flow and sps polyps were waving in the current. It might be the carbon your running or phosphate media that is causing your problem. Did you try ozone yet ? What is the redox level of your tank. SPS seem to repond very well to high redox levels,

[michika]

Originally Posted by fencer

Myka
Catherine is a very experienced reefer. enough said about that. It is strange only your SPS's are affected. I would have expected your clams to be affected too. When I saw the tank there was plenty of flow and sps polyps were waving in the current. It might be the carbon your running or phosphate media that is causing your problem. Did you try ozone yet ? What is the redox level of your tank. SPS seem to repond very well to high redox levels,

I haven't actually ventured into ozone. I've never used it before and am a bit afraid of it. I have actually ordered a ORP controller/monitor for the 180g. I should arrive today or maybe even tomorrow assuming the weather doesn't hold it up.

What should I be looking for when testing the redox level? I think I should be watching for swings, and low numbers, but is there anything else?

Originally Posted by Matt

At this point, I'd be suspicious of anything that's going into the tank; CO2, reactor media, food, carbon, supplements, salt, filter socks...

I actually started doing that after Marie originally suggested taking my reactors offline to see if they were the causes. I purchased new media for everything, once I determined it wasn't the reactors I put them back online. I also changed salt brands, from Ocean Pro Pure back to Red Sea Coral Pro (I've had lots of success with it in the past).

I changed foods, and I went two weeks without filters socks. However when I did the filter sock test it appears (I log everything) that the SPS in the tank at the time were already in decline. Maybe I should try that again.

[BMW Rider]

I too have been having a lot of difficulty in the past few months keeping SPS. I've had several new colonies and frags RTN shortly after introduction to the tank. I've read Marie's earlier posts on the CO2 and have planned to change my Reactor return to feed into my skimmer to help burn off any residual gas.

I was also looking back at some photos of my tank from a couple years ago and was shocked to see how much it has changed, and not for the better. In looking back, I found that this all started about the time I began with the Reefresh system to try to deal with a briopsis outbreak. I have not been able to find anyone local carrying the product anymore anyway. I talked to J&l about why they dropped it, and they said they had less than favourable feedback from users. I have run out of some of the product, so I have decided to take my tank off drugs for a while to see if that helps.

I was also reading the links and info on the potassium dosing and the symptoms of low K levels. It all seems to fit what I'm experiencing as well, so it too may be a factor. I tried to find a K test kit, but so far have come up with notheing, but in the meanwhile I am trying dosing K-balance to see if thing improve.

I suspect the real answer is that it is not really any one thing, but a combination of factors. I suspect that the Reefresh system has possibly depleted my K levels. There may also be some other long term effects of the probiotics that eventually causes a decline in the system since it requires you to balance the water paramaters on a knife edge to keep it working. Also, its possible a new colony that is not aclimatized to the ultra low nutrient environment may not have the resources to deal with it when introduced. I do have one acro that has been in the tank for quite a while and is doing OK (not great though) Further, it is possible that the non-food grade CO2 has just enough impurity in it to add a final blow to an all ready vulnerable system.

I will be following this thread as well and will try to keep track of my success/failure with these steps and post the results.

[christyf5]

I vote for the silicone or something chemical in nature. I've had SPS issues myself over the last few months (or really lets face it the last few years, granted they were never any single thing). Anyway, this last one was definitely chemical in nature and resulted in STN of many frags and colonies. I'm at the point now where I think I've diluted it enough and things are turning around. However if you suspect the silicone, it will be leaching out whatever toxic chemical for quite some time before it is exhausted. I think at this point you need to realize that either you can't keep SPS in that tank or that you need to get everything out of that tank and into a different one to save yourself the headache and heartache.

Perhaps you could resilicone the tank with the proper silicone? (ie. get some more from Bow Valley)

Don't know what to suggest about the rock. I would imagine at some point it would stop leaching whatever its been sucking up (if it has been sucking up anything for that matter) however I wouldn't want to take the risk.

Oh and personally I think its good to be nervous of ozone. Less chance of buggering it up. However its not as scary as you think, you don't need all that much to get the job done, IMO, and the amount doesn't harm a thing (well nothing you don't want it to anyways ). I aimed for an ORP of about 425 (although I've heard 360 is "better") using 25mg/L. Clean the probe in vinegar/water every week or it will throw your readings off.

[fencer]

A redox level of 380-400 is good. Ozone might help the problem by destroiying anything agent that is organic in nature such as hydrocarbons but not the algacide in the silicone unless it is organic in nature. You would think the carbon would eventually adsorb/absorb all the nasties. This is also true of water changes. Having said all carbon can remove good stuff as well. Maybe if you go the water change way you could supplement the water with trace elemnts too.

[Myka]

Originally Posted by michika

I've never tested for Strontium, Iron, or Silicates. What makes you think I should be testing them? Does something stand out about my problem that makes you think of these elements?

Silicone was the non-anti-fungal type made by GE. Although someone recently sent me a PM letting me know that they had seen a thread where there was something wrong with the silicone itself. From what I understand anti-fungal silicone was packaged and sold as the non-anti-fungal variety. I'm still looking into this, and waiting on a link to that thread.

I thought you had other tanks running, so I thought it would be easy (and cheap) for you to try changing the rock and sand out.

Corals are sensitive (and SPS are obviously more so) to both high and low readings of Strontium, Iron, Silicates, and Potassium (which I forgot to mention). I don't test for these regularly, and I don't suggest you do either, but it is something that I would check if there is someone or an LFS around that could test your water for you.

I really don't understand why people use silicone that isn't specifically meant for aquariums. What's a few bucks?

Originally Posted by untamed

I think that the problems are viral or bacterial, combined with tank conditions which weaken the corals immunity to attack by virus or bacteria. The viruses and bacteria may be unavoidable, or they might be introduced.

I thought of this as well, but figured the more likely culprits should be questioned first. As far as whether there is SPS specific bacteria/virus, I'm no biologist, but I would assume that is quite likely. There are SPS specific parasites after all.

Originally Posted by michika

Can I also ask what I would see if I was seeing light burn? Is it possible that my light is too strong? Its a 175w SE MH in a luminarc reflector. I'm debating switching it out back to my badwing. I assume if it was light burn I would see bleached tips, although I'm not sure about the polyp retraction.

When I've light burned my SPS they just bleached out, but they did it very quickly. Like in a day. Once I covered them with half a dozen layers of screening and slowly acclimated them they took about 4 week to color back up. I never left it unattended though, so I don't know what they would look like if the burn wasn't stopped (by screen or w.h.y.).

Originally Posted by michika

I figure in a month maybe 6 weeks this tank will come down, and everything will go into the 180g, save for the rock and sand. I'll seed the new system with rock and sand from other trusted sources. I will also have to figure out a method to transfer my clams with as little of my current tank water as possible.

I would strongly suggest that you do not put any of the livestock from your nano into your 180g. I wouldn't put the rock or sand in there either. I'd be WAAAAAAAAAY too paranoid to do that. Could you imagine this battle on a 180g tank?

[michika]

Originally Posted by Myka

I really don't understand why people use silicone that isn't specifically meant for aquariums. What's a few bucks?

I would strongly suggest that you do not put any of the livestock from your nano into your 180g. I wouldn't put the rock or sand in there either. I'd be WAAAAAAAAAY too paranoid to do that. Could you imagine this battle on a 180g tank?

Actually the silicone I used and continue to use is aquarium safe, and actually DESIGNED for use in aquariums...

If you scroll up you would know that I've already decided to not move over the rock or sand and to seed my new system from other sources. But what would you suggest I do with the fish in my system? I'm holding fish in this tank that cannot and should not stay in the system much longer.