Just getting started - have some questions...

[SmallFry]

OK, it all started on Christmas morning. Evidently the Wife had noticed the amount of time I was spending in the LFS looking at saltwater fish, because in my stocking (well not actually in it) was a 25g fish tank with a pump, stand, wet/dry filter and a light hood.

I've been doing some research (on this and a number of other forums) where I have found a wealth of useful information and have formulated a plan. Any comments/suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

I want to do FOWLR - at least to start with (and the lights aren't powerful enough for coral anyway)...

My main problem is that I know I should have about 30lbs of live rock in there, however live rock is expensive here - and expensive to ship from elsewhere. I was thinking of using a few lbs of live rock and the rest of base rock (I was thinking of carib sea "south seas rock"). The idea being that the live rock will seed the filter and the 'dead' base rock with the necessary bacteria. Will this even work (I've heard rumors that it will but not sure)?

I'm thinking that this would mean it will take longer for the full filtration going, but does anyone have any ideas on how much longer, and what would be the minimum amount of live rock?

I'm not planning on having too much bio load in there and I also plan on getting a protein skimmer before any livestock, I was thinking of:

A couple of skunk cleaner shrimp to go in after the tank has cycled,
A pair of clowns (of some sort) to go in maybe a month or so after the shrimp,
Maybe a "something else" (I had been thinking of a yellow tang, but it looks like I don't have enough space for one).

Suggestions or opinions would be most welcome (I guess that the clowns and the "something else" might have to change order depending on what "something else" is)..

Thanks,
Robin

[fdiddy]

Glad to see you're doing your research. In my tank I used 25 lbs live rock and 40 lbs base rock (40g Breeder BTW). If i didn't know which one's came from the store I wouldn't have been able to tell the difference after about 4-5 months to be honest with you. This is common and the benefit of base rock is that you know what's going in your tank... no hitchhikers, even though they can be pretty sweet sometimes. Yellow tang should wait until you upgrade, because let's face it.. if you catch the bug you will want to upgrade.
Cheers,
Evan.

[karazy]

seeding the base rock will work, ive never done it so im just gonna estimate about a 1:2 or 1:3 ratio of lbs of live rock to lbs of base rock.

it will slow it down a bit, but it should be fine.

if i were you i would wait until the tank is cycled, add a smaller CUC (maybe 10 snails and 2 hermit) and then about 2 weeks later add about 10-20 more snails and maybe 2 or 3 more hermits.
then in another 2 weeks add the 2 shrimp.
wait maybe another 2 or 3 weeks, and then i would say it's safe to add a pair of clownfish.
for a tank that size i would recommend either A.occelaris or A.percula (both look like "nemo")

now unfortunately there is no way that you would be able to keep a yellow tang healthy in a tank that size. if you want something else i would suggest a Goby and pistol shrimp pair.

certain species of gobies and pistol shrimp have a symbiosis together where the shrimp makes a burrow while the goby keeps watch. its super kool to watch.
for gobies i'd suggest either a high fin goby, a yashia goby, or a randalls goby. there are also many more different gobies to choose from, so try looking some up in an online store, like J&L for instance.(link below)
http://www.jlaquatics.com/phpstore/s...s/mainpage.php

there are many other ways you could do it, but i like that one so that's the one i suggest.

[Myka]

Originally Posted by SmallFry

OK, it all started on Christmas morning. Evidently the Wife had noticed the amount of time I was spending in the LFS looking at saltwater fish, because in my stocking (well not actually in it) was a 25g fish tank with a pump, stand, wet/dry filter and a light hood.

I've been doing some research (on this and a number of other forums) where I have found a wealth of useful information and have formulated a plan. Any comments/suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

I want to do FOWLR - at least to start with (and the lights aren't powerful enough for coral anyway)...

My main problem is that I know I should have about 30lbs of live rock in there, however live rock is expensive here - and expensive to ship from elsewhere. I was thinking of using a few lbs of live rock and the rest of base rock (I was thinking of carib sea "south seas rock"). The idea being that the live rock will seed the filter and the 'dead' base rock with the necessary bacteria. Will this even work (I've heard rumors that it will but not sure)?

I'm thinking that this would mean it will take longer for the full filtration going, but does anyone have any ideas on how much longer, and what would be the minimum amount of live rock?

I'm not planning on having too much bio load in there and I also plan on getting a protein skimmer before any livestock, I was thinking of:

A couple of skunk cleaner shrimp to go in after the tank has cycled,
A pair of clowns (of some sort) to go in maybe a month or so after the shrimp,
Maybe a "something else" (I had been thinking of a yellow tang, but it looks like I don't have enough space for one).

Suggestions or opinions would be most welcome (I guess that the clowns and the "something else" might have to change order depending on what "something else" is)..

Thanks,
Robin

First of all, ask the nice wifey to take the wed/dry filter back as it isn't suitable for a saltwater tank. You can exchange it for an AquaClear or something like that that's just basic and you can use that to run some carbon and phosphate remover, but no sponge or wet/dry, or bioballs, or ceramic rings or anything like that.

You are right that you can use a large amount of base rock and use a couple pieces of live rock to "seed" the base rock. I would suggest you check out www.bulkreefsupply.com for their dry rock as it is much higher quality than most base rocks. Most base rocks are quite dense, and don't make very good live rock as they don't get seeded very well. You are also right that it will take a lot longer for the dry live rock to become a significant contributor to the filtration of your tank. It will take 6-12 months for the live rock to seed the dry rock properly. The more live rock and the less dry rock that you use the faster the process will be. Since your lighting is going to be low quality your live rock will lose a lot of the nice coloration anyway, so dry base rock is a good plan in your case.

I would suggest a Deltec MCE300 for your tank as a skimmer. If that's too much money you could try out a Remora (not the nano), but I'm really starting to dislike my stupid Remora. I don't even use the thing anymore, it's sitting there collecting dust.

That is a definate NO on the Yellow Tang. You need at least a 90g tank for a Tang of any sort in my opinion.

Take a read through the link in my signature about tank cycling before you get started. That should help you out.

[awa1979]

Originally Posted by Myka

try out a Remora (not the nano), but I'm really starting to dislike my stupid Remora. I don't even use the thing anymore, it's sitting there collecting dust.

May I ask why you dislike the Remora? I've got one and so far no issues, just wanting to know if I should expect something in the future.

[SmallFry]

Thanks everyone for the advice so far...

As I suspected, the Tang is out until I get a bigger tank... The dry rock is the way I'll go, I think. The dry fijii rock from bulk reef supply looks really nice and would be my preferred option, but the shipping was going to be almost twice the price of the rock! So I guess that I'll end up with the south seas lace rock that I can get from in Canada and shipped cheaply...

I guess I hadn't really thought too much about the clean up crew, which is probably a mistake. I have to admit that the thought of ending up with 20-30 snails and 3-5 hermits in a 25 gallon tank is blowing my mind a bit - I don't know whether there'll be that much to clean up!

With regards to the filter, I guess you're worried about it becoming full of nitrates? There are not any bio-balls or anything like in there, just a pair of what look like heavy duty nylon scourers that provide some mechanical filtration. The guy at the LFS has already suggested replacing these with some that are impregnated with carbon. I guess I can always keep swapping them out one at a time if they start to get too clogged up.. Does this sound reasonable?

Thanks,
Robin.

[Myka]

Originally Posted by awa1979

May I ask why you dislike the Remora? I've got one and so far no issues, just wanting to know if I should expect something in the future.

I have fiddled with my Remora for over two years. In the beginning it did an ok job (decent skimmer for the price), but as my tank ages and there is less and less waste I find the Remora isn't efficient enough to get what waste there is. So I find it useless on my low nutrient tank.

Originally Posted by SmallFry

Thanks everyone for the advice so far...

As I suspected, the Tang is out until I get a bigger tank... The dry rock is the way I'll go, I think. The dry fijii rock from bulk reef supply looks really nice and would be my preferred option, but the shipping was going to be almost twice the price of the rock! So I guess that I'll end up with the south seas lace rock that I can get from in Canada and shipped cheaply...

I guess I hadn't really thought too much about the clean up crew, which is probably a mistake. I have to admit that the thought of ending up with 20-30 snails and 3-5 hermits in a 25 gallon tank is blowing my mind a bit - I don't know whether there'll be that much to clean up!

With regards to the filter, I guess you're worried about it becoming full of nitrates? There are not any bio-balls or anything like in there, just a pair of what look like heavy duty nylon scourers that provide some mechanical filtration. The guy at the LFS has already suggested replacing these with some that are impregnated with carbon. I guess I can always keep swapping them out one at a time if they start to get too clogged up.. Does this sound reasonable?

Thanks,
Robin.

I can't believe that BRS has high shipping on the rock! Are you making your order more than $200? They have special shipping rates when you're under $200. I found the shipping to be very reasonable when I looked into buying some of their Tonga Shelf rock.

You absolutely do not need that many critters for cleanup. When you look at LFS's suggested cleanup crews they are ridiculous. When a tank is first set up there will be a bloom in algaes, and the clean up crew (cuc) is there to help, but if you get a cuc that is large enough to keep your new tank clean right from the start you will end up losing a lot of the cuc to starvation when the tank balances itself out. For a 25g tank I would suggest starting with (after the cycle has completely finished) 2-3 Astrea snails, 4-5 Cerith snails, and maybe 4-6 Nassarius. Be aware that hermits will kill snails if they get hungry or want the snails' perty shell for their home. For that reason, I have refused to keep hermits in my tanks.

No, the wet/dry is not suitable. The "dry" part will be a nitrate factory yes. carbon impregnated anything is awful stuff as it is made with carbon dust, or real fine carbon which a certain amount becomes dislodged and ends up in the water column. That is bad. Carbon should always be put into a filter sock that you can tie up so the carbon doesn't move when the water passes through to prevent grinding and powering. The only thing you need a power filter (of any sort) for is to run carbon and/or phosphate media. The most efficient carbons are purchased bulk; I like Kent Reef Carbon the best. Be sure to rinse all carbon in cool RO/DI water until the runs clear before putting it into your filter.

[awa1979]

On 35 pounds of rock shipping was 60 something, 90 something for the rock when I was pricing around for some.

I just went with wet rock locally in the end. It would be up to each individual to decide whats reasonable for shipping and whats not.

[SmallFry]

Originally Posted by Myka

I can't believe that BRS has high shipping on the rock! Are you making your order more than $200? They have special shipping rates when you're under $200. I found the shipping to be very reasonable when I looked into buying some of their Tonga Shelf rock.

Originally Posted by awa1979

On 35 pounds of rock shipping was 60 something, 90 something for the rock when I was pricing around for some.

I just went with wet rock locally in the end. It would be up to each individual to decide whats reasonable for shipping and whats not.

Err, yes, it helps if you put in the right post code - price came down from $130 to $46

Originally Posted by Myka

You absolutely do not need that many critters for cleanup. When you look at LFS's suggested cleanup crews they are ridiculous. When a tank is first set up there will be a bloom in algaes, and the clean up crew (cuc) is there to help, but if you get a cuc that is large enough to keep your new tank clean right from the start you will end up losing a lot of the cuc to starvation when the tank balances itself out. For a 25g tank I would suggest starting with (after the cycle has completely finished) 2-3 Astrea snails, 4-5 Cerith snails, and maybe 4-6 Nassarius. Be aware that hermits will kill snails if they get hungry or want the snails' perty shell for their home. For that reason, I have refused to keep hermits in my tanks.

That sounds a bit more sustainable for sure, thanks for the tip on the hermits will have to think carefully about that..

Originally Posted by Myka

No, the wet/dry is not suitable. The "dry" part will be a nitrate factory yes. carbon impregnated anything is awful stuff as it is made with carbon dust, or real fine carbon which a certain amount becomes dislodged and ends up in the water column. That is bad.

I see, so your biological filtration is then all done in your live rock/sand.

Robin.