which shop in calgary is the best in service??

[EmilyB]

It's just pretty much of a good example of the current thinking in some(most) of our local LFS.

Enuf said.

[Delphinus]

Originally Posted by aussiefishy

oh! those anemones....

something to think about is that, it is a shop, not a zoo... i totally agree that a shop should provide suitable environment for livestock, but to what extent?? proper salinity, lighting, currents, protein skimming i think,

we are not importing them to put into a tank for 5-6 years... things have to remember is the rate they are selling at, and also available space for anemones in a shop. from our experience, the amount of time each anemone in our shop is between 1-7 days. IMO, the stinging do not take long enough to harm anemones. (we have not seen anemones dying in our store in that system).. and if you ever take up diving into the tropics, anemones are somehow aggregates together as well.

1) If you ever take up diving into the tropics, you will see that anemones are emphatically NOT "somehow aggregate together." The only exception to this are the species that are able to clone, and form colonies. But this is not true of all species of anemone.

If you look at any piece of the Great Barrier Reef, for example, you can swim 100m before encountering any anemone whatsoever. You can't swim a stone's throw in any direction before you surpass hundreds of SPS or other species.

Anemones do not hang out together on the reef. To quote Dr. Ron Shimek in a conversation we had about a year or two ago, "multi-species assemblages are neither natural nor desireable."

2) You are not importing them to live in a tank for 5-6 years but you are importing them. So if they don't live for 5-6 years after they leave your shop does that exonerate you because it wasn't in your care? What about the oft-quoted statistic that maybe 1 in 10 anemones imported live to be >5years in captivity? Of those 9 how many did not make it past the first 6 months? Or 3 months? Or 1 month? If an animal melts in the first week, was it because the animal was acclimated poorly or because the tank was ill-suited? Maybe, but what about the possibility that the animal was so stressed or compromised that the last acclimation was just the final kick in the pants to seal its fate? Anemones do not find each other in multiple numbers in such close quarters and one of the worst things you can do to a stressed anemone is put it into a closed system with many other stressed anemones. The collection to retail process is in my opinion extremely harsh on them and I think we can't disregard what happens before we buy the animals as a factor in the absolute horrid statistics for long-term success (or lack thereof) of anemones in captivity. Especially shameful considering that our best guesses for anemone lifespans is that it is immeasureable.

An anemone collected out of the wild is that much less habitat for a wild breeding pair of clownfish. We really, really need to tread more carefully with anemones because I think the future for them in the wild is grim if we don't start getting our act together.


3) It is a shop, not a zoo. But to what extent do you keep conditions suitable? To the fullest extent practical. If it is not practical to properly care for the animal during the duration of its stay in your facilities, I think the ethical choice is to not offer that animal. Even if that means disappointing a few customers along the way.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by aussiefishy

oh! those anemones....

something to think about is that, it is a shop, not a zoo... i totally agree that a shop should provide suitable environment for livestock, but to what extent?? proper salinity, lighting, currents, protein skimming i think,

we are not importing them to put into a tank for 5-6 years... things have to remember is the rate they are selling at, and also available space for anemones in a shop. from our experience, the amount of time each anemone in our shop is between 1-7 days. IMO, the stinging do not take long enough to harm anemones. (we have not seen anemones dying in our store in that system).. and if you ever take up diving into the tropics, anemones are somehow aggregates together as well.


something to think about


Cheers

Here is the thing ... anemones typically dont react to unsuitable environments in a really negative way for awhhile ( awile can be defined in hours or days or weeks or even months ) ... as a result if you only have them in your tanks for 1 to 7 days then who knows what adverse effects happen after they leave your care ? ... as to anemones living in a communal setting ... they are more than likely clones and of the same species ... clones will easily cohabitate with their own but react negatively with other species especially in a closed system.

So the whole point is not to rake you over the coals for some anemones ... as Quinn has so eloquently pointed out some of the shortfalls of the industry and you have also pointed out the challenges you face and hopefully we can do whats best for everyone even if it means that we ( collectively ) have to pay a little more to ensure that these animals have a good chance at survival when they reach your stores and beyond to our marine habitats.

We look forward to improved displays and quality of selection

Cheers

[Buccaneer]

You and I were posting at the same time Tony

Cheers

[EmilyB]

(we have not seen anemones dying in our store in that system)..

Well I did.

Yesterday. Tell me it lived.

[Delphinus]

Originally Posted by Rasta

clones will easily cohabitate with their own but react negatively with other species especially in a closed system.

(On a point of interest) not only other species but even specimens of the same species that are non-clonal siblings. In fact, competition for survival among same species may be greatest because they are competing for the same niche in the habitat (need same resources, etc.)...

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by Delphinus

(On a point of interest) not only other species but even specimens of the same species that are non-clonal siblings. In fact, competition for survival among same species may be greatest because they are competing for the same niche in the habitat (need same resources, etc.)...

Good point Tony ... I was mostly referring to Clones in my example but your point is well taken in reference to the species as a whole ...

Cheers

[saltcreep]

Where to start??? After being away for a couple of days, I'm compelled to waid into this quagmire of crap. Where to start???

I will say that fundamentally this industry is much like any other, believe it or not. When you get down to the root of it, all the products, be it dry goods or live, are a commodity. Don't even drag oil companies into this argument...that's a whole other board for another day. The two industries don't even compare.

Industry greed...well I would like to add that you, the hobbyist (nobody specifically out there), are part of this industry, and thus, are part of the problem too. This is where the market forces come into play. Much is made of the collectors, exporters, importers, and LFS, but I don't here a peep on these boards when a hobbyist purchases a product that is unsuitable or at risk. Apparantly that is taboo. I agree that most of you are ones that actually care, but make up the minority of trade. There are a great many that make purchases solely on price. This could explain why the majority of the fish and inverts come from Indonesia or the Philippines. Check back to other discussions on this board and look at some of the comments. Hobbyists (few) would rather save money and purchase a fish that may have been caught with cyanide rather than pay a premium for a fish that is guaranteed caught without. Why don't you see coral beauties from either Fiji or Australia with any regularity? Answer - too much money for the average hobbyist when compared with the same fish from Indo or PI.

Now take a look at captive bred product. Why isn't there more? Answer - see above. The average hobbyist again will balk at purchasing that CB clown because it's twice the price of the wild caught clown. I have 5 captive bred seahorses that I've had for seven weeks. I haven't sold single horse...because they are too expensive.

My mind is about to explode, so let me have it.

[EmilyB]

Just curious, but where are you from saltcreep?

[saltcreep]

Why...I know too much? I could tell you a lot more, but would get myself into trouble. Actually, I am co-owner of Coast Mountain Aquatics in Vancouver (wholesale only). I 'm ready to take all you've got .