Do you believe equality is beneficial or detrimental to society?

[wolf_bluejay]

One of me and the wife's favorite debates is the differences in the brain between the genders.

There is a LOT of research done on the different brain chemistry/design. Generally speaking the theory goes like this: In the cave man days, men were hunters, we could focus on the task at hand (and not much else) very well. Whereas women being more gatherers and raising children would need to focus on many things at a time, even if not more intently.

Now, this does lead to some interesting noticeable differences in what jobs each gender is better at, and strangely it doesn't align very well with the stereotypical jobs. IE: men would make good high stress leaders (submarine commander, emergency response, and business managers in high stress fields). We would not be good at anything that involves organizational skills or anything that requires attention to detail -- professional driving, auto mechanic, or managing a large number of staff in a non-high stress job.

Women are pretty much the opposite, great at secretarial work (not to be offensive, but it involves multi-tasking and organization), large scale management (100+ employees), and anything involving long term planning.

It is just strange that instead of the gender differences getting used to the best advantage, some stereotypes seem to persist.
As for things like underground mining -- the sad truth is that very few underground miners will actually go down to work while a woman in underground. It is considered bad luck and they fear that everytime a woman goes under, someone will die. It is sad because in a industrial setting, women have VERY FEW accidents as the adherence to safety protocols is near perfect.
I spent some time doing investigations for industrial accidents, women are more safe than men, and by a whole lot. Seems there is a lot less of "I'm tough so I can do it" and "It will never happen to me". The one I do like to see is that men will let their co-workers break safety rule to get the job done, were women will almost always call you out for doing something stupid.

Of course, I married a feminist sociologist, I should have known what I was in for hint: that means I don't wear the pants in my family.

[StirCrazy]

Originally Posted by marie

To pigeon hole humans is to do them a disservice, to say that all men are stronger/smarter is to deny a significant portion of the human race a happy life.
We all have our strengths and our weaknesses and they are in no way gender specific

Myka, just because you can't keep up with your job does not mean another women couldn't do the same job "working that hard" and be happy.

Marie, I don't think anyone is pigeonholling anyone here, am I don't beleave this is anything for women to get defencive about. on average is what we are talking about and yes there are the exception, I had one girl who worked for me who could out lift 3/4 of the men and was a very good worker, I also had men that were built like twigs and couldn't do the very intence physical work, so yes there are exceptions both ways. but when it comes to the norm there are very distinctive physical and mental differances between men and women which I don't feel is a bad thing or a good thing it just is. the debate is how these differances are addresses in the real world.

Steve

[StirCrazy]

ok so lets get some hard facts down for the differances. this is from a large scale medical study

PHYSICAL DIFFERENCES


There are several obvious differences between men and women, including the following:

1. An average man is taller and heavier than an average woman.
2. Men have more bodily hair than women do, especially on the chest and extremities
3. Women are more sensitive to sound than men
4. Men are over 30% stronger than women, especially in the upper body. Although many feminists cannot face this fact, females simply do not have the strength or endurance necessary to be, for example, effective combat soldiers.
5. On average, girls begin puberty changing approximately two years before boys.
6. Men have larger hearts and lungs, and their higher levels of testosterone cause them to produce greater amounts of red blood cells
7. Differences in intake and delivery of oxygen translates into some aspects of performance: when a man is jogging at about 50% of his capacity, a woman will need to work at over 70% of her capacity to keep up with him.
8. Female fertility decreases after age 35, ending with menopause, but men are capable of making children even when very old.
9. Men’s skin has more collagen and sebum, which makes it thicker and oilier than women’s skin
10. Women generally have a greater body fat percentage than men.
11. Men and women have different levels of certain hormones; for example, men have a higher concentration of androgens such as testosterone, while women have a higher concentration of estrogens.
12. An average male brain has approximately 4% more cells and 100 grams more brain tissue than an average female brain. This is not connected with intelligence! Research points to no overall difference in intelligence between males and females. However, both sexes have similar brain weight to body weight ratios.
13. In men, the second digit is often shorter than the fourth digit, while in females the second tends to be longer than the fourth
14. Men have better distance vision and depth perception, and usually better vision in lighted environments. Women have better night vision, see better at the red end of the light spectrum, and have better visual memory.


Diseases


1. More men than women become infected with HIV.
2. More males are likely to be diagnosed with tuberculosis then females.
3. Women are less likely to suffer from cardiovascular disease.
4. Men are more likely to suffer from cancer.
5. Women are more likely to suffer from osteoarthritis, osteoporosis and blindness


MENTAL DIFFERENCES


Brain differences: Several studies have proven significant differences between male and female brains. Differences are located in both the primitive regions, and the newer parts of the brain called neocortex – the higher brain regions.
Men and women process information differently because of differences in a portion of the brain called the splenium, which is much larger in women than in men, and has more brain-wave activity.

Intelligence: Many small-scale studies report differences not repeated in larger studies which, or course, caused argues and confusions. Several researches done on volunteers have proven that there is no significant difference in the average intelligence level of men and women.

However, there are some slight differences:

1. An average man performs better on tests of spatial and mathematical ability, while women perform better on tests of verbal ability and memory.
2. Men’s IQ has greater variance, which means that there are more men than women in the very high and very low IQ groups.

Behavioral differences:

There are some proven behavioral differences between men and women. and the most common are:

1. Men are more physically aggressive.
2. Men "Cencered" more.
3. Women are less likely to successfully commit suicide, but more likely to attempt it.
4. Men have more positive attitudes about sex then women do.
5. Men are more prone to taking risks.
6. Women express their emotions more readily and experience a greater intensity of emotion.

Differences in mental health:

Several mental illnesses are proven to be differently distributed between genders.

The most common include:

1. Depression – Several researches have shown that this disease affects females twice as often as it does males. Serotonin is a chemical required in the brain for “happy mood maintenance”. The rate of synthesis and level of serotonin in the blood are significantly higher in men than in women. These differences may help explain why depression is more common in women. Both depression and panic disorder rates, which are two disorders with higher rates in women than men, may be tied to childhood experiences of abuse.
2. Schizophrenia - Although this disorder affects men and women equally, men typically experience symptoms earlier, with more intensity, and have poorer prognosis than women. Symptoms of schizophrenia in women more frequently involve depression and greater disorders in thought conceptualization, while men report more apathy, disorders of speech, disturbance in cognitive function, and social isolation.
3. Alzheimer’s disease - Several studies have shown that women are at a higher risk of developing Alzheimer’s disease than men are. This disease is caused by the damage to the white brain matter. On the other hand, men with Alzheimer’s disease have a higher risk of mortality than women do.
4. Stress Disorders - Anziaty disorders are chronic illnesses that occur more often in women than men. The risk of post-traumatic stress disorder following some traumatic experience is much higher in women than men. Women are also more likely to have been previously assaulted or to have sustained injury by a relative or someone known to them.

Happiness: In general, it has been proven that women are happier with their lives than men are. Women also show greater concern about family and home life issues, while men express more sympathies about political issues.

Different brains – different abilities: The difference between the male and female brain is not evidence of intelligence, unintelligence, superiority, or inferiority, but of field specializations. In general, males have better spatial and math skills than females. On the other hand, girls tend to be more vocal than boys. Males are much better in visualizing a three-dimensional object than women are.

SOME OTHER DIFFERENCES - life success, education, employment…

Employment: In most of countries, there are more wealthy or rich men than there are women. There are much more unemployed females, as well. Employed women earn 80% of the income of men. Women are less productive then men – women in nonagricultural industries work 35.9 hours per week versus 41.6 hours for men.

[marie]

You won't get an argument from me about men and women being different but when you start spouting statistics I can't help getting defensive, statistics never tell the whole story.
I don't think equality does society any favours but when people are labeled before they start out in life it makes for the wrong kind of inequality.

[Ron99]

I think equality is an imaginary concept. There is no equality. But it has nothing to do with your race or gender etc. My main view on equality has to do with brain power and that is an individual thing that is independent of gender etc. I think that we should not be equal and it should be based on intelligence and rationality rather then other arbitrary criteria such as the colour of your skin or whether you have dangly bits or not.

Of course equality in specific tasks or situations can vary too. If you are looking for the best linebacker for your football team you aren't going to pick a five foot tall 90 pound woman or the guy with the highest IQ, you're going for the biggest toughest guy you can find etc.

[Myka]

Originally Posted by marie

Myka, just because you can't keep up with your job does not mean another women couldn't do the same job "working that hard" and be happy.

That's not what I said at all. I said:

Originally Posted by Myka

I can keep up to the men (and outwork many) I know I can't work this hard for many more years.

My body has worked very hard. Take a look at the size of my biceps, my "6-pack" abs, and the callouses on my hands (all of which I find embrassing btw). I don't go to the gym to get that. I have been in male-dominated industries for 10 years. I have done forest fire fighting, carpentry (I'm 6 months away from journeyman), and now I drive a vacuum truck which involves more heavy work than driving. I have always preferred to work a physically strenuous job to keep myself in shape, and maybe I've taken it a bit too far.

There are other women doing jobs I have done (I haven't seen or heard of any vac hauler women though), but there are few, and even fewer of them can keep up to the guys. I'm a perfectionist, and can't handle not being the best at what I'm doing. Keeping up isn't good enough. I will outwork most men at my job, and my body now feels that. I'm 5'8" and a petite 120 lbs, no butch here. My body is not made to work as hard as it has for an entire lifetime, and both my chiropractor and my doctor have told me I should find a less strenuous job for the future because the wear is starting to show, and I'm only 27.

Sure I'm only one woman doing a man's job, but I'm still part of the statistics. When the time comes that I can't keep up anymore, I will find a new job because I don't feel it's fair or safe for me to have a position where I can't keep up. I'm sure that time will be well before I hit 40, which is also well before retirement.

[mark]

to bring this thread back up, here what I was told today is needed for a position I'm doing.

.... is committed to having a skilled and diversified workforce representative of the population we serve. In support of our Engagement Strategy to achieve employment equity goals, selection may be limited to candidates self-identifying as belonging to one of the following Employment Equity groups: Aboriginal peoples, Persons with a Disability, Visible Minorities and Women.


Basically raise your hand and you go to the top of the list.

[StirCrazy]

Originally Posted by mark

to bring this thread back up, here what I was told today is needed for a position I'm doing.

.... is committed to having a skilled and diversified workforce representative of the population we serve. In support of our Engagement Strategy to achieve employment equity goals, selection may be limited to candidates self-identifying as belonging to one of the following Employment Equity groups: Aboriginal peoples, Persons with a Disability, Visible Minorities and Women.


Basically raise your hand and you go to the top of the list.

I get a kick out of these.

so disabled = 14.8% or alberta population
Visible minors = 11% (which includes Aboriginal people)
Statisticly there are more women in the world than men, so we will say 55% so that = a total of 80.8% of workforce must be from these groups so they can only hire 19.2% white males..

My sugestion is to have a sex change

Steve

[Ian]

Well I voted on this a while ago but now I want to comment
1st- Stircrazy I agreee with most of what you said with the exception of one point
14. Men have better distance vision and depth perception, and usually better vision in lighted environments. Women have better night vision, see better at the red end of the light spectrum, and have better visual memory.

When I work in the neruoscience lab one of the things I remember clearly is that men have a higher density of rods in there eyes which allows for greater acuity in vision including low light situations but are not sensative to light. woman have more cones which gives them far greater color awareness ( GO CLOTHES SHOPPING WITH A FEMALE FOR PROOF) but lower detail ability and night vision

Now back to the topic at hand, equality.
It has been and always will be nothing but wishfull thinking. In society we have selective breeding and that is the start. it is known the we are drawn to certain persons who have a set of traits that will compliment our own, producing offspring that are better ( more fit) able to survive. we also tend to pick mates that are at or very near our own social class, some factors can allow us to move up or down such as wealth, percieved power, or great beauty but for the most part we stay close to our own level like it or not. So from a societal perspective equality is very unlikely.
From a workforce standpoint I think equality is not only a bad idea but has actualy deen detrimental in many ways to the progress of minorities. Do you think that any employer forced to hire the 2nd or 5th best applicant simply because of a forced quota system will be happy about it? That same employer may then decide that he/she will only hire to fill the quota and then not consider any more minorities. Also in jobs where a very specific skill set is needed changing requirements to " level the playing field" is counter to simply selecting the best person for the job and could end up being dangerous depending on the job.
As a 6'4" 300 pond man I know that there are jobs out there that I cannot do based purely on my sizebut I also know that my 5'5" 120 pound wife was not the person I wanted watching my back when I worked as a bouncer in some very nasty bars.
later
Ian