Powder blues at J&L

[smokinreefer]

cool.
most likely a pair.

now if you can only tell me if you notice any physical differences between the 2.

so i can get a pair as well.

[saltcreep]

BCOG - Arrivals of flights from overseas is the reason that different LFS will get arrivals on the same day at the same time. There are limited flights from overseas. The shipments may not necessarily come from the same suppliers so there may be a difference in quality or cyanide vs net caught.

Naesco - The other factor to quality fish is handling. I hope our conversation the other day helped with this point. I firmly believe that the way the fish/coral are handled and shipped has a greater impact on the health of the animals after they are collected. The impact on the reef through cyanide use is a no-brainer.

[robbyville]

Hello folks,

Not sure about the stocking of the tangs but I since the mgmt of J&L was brought up I thought that I would take the time for a quick post!

I don't work for them, I found them when I was researching LFS's prior tp my move from California back to Whistler.

In my experiences, they have been nothing short of great with both their advice, and pricing. As mentioned in another post, no hard sell tactics and I've even been told by them a few times "Wait until you're better prepared and more experienced". I deal mostly with Allan and Jeff when I go down on weekends and truly believe in their professionalism.

The only reason I post this is because on some of the other boards there is so much bagging on LFS's (Some legitimate some not), that I would hate for some to feel frustrated by it.

that being said, I'm not sure how orders for fish are done. If they have ultimate control or not of what they get. but I do believe that they do their best to control the quality of the livestock they get.

Best,

Rob

[Troy F]

Good post Rob. Welcome back to Canada eh!

I think they're a great store myself and have no problem with their ethics. Allen, John and Jeff all shoot from the hip and give you honest answers (which of course are their opinions). I too have witnessed them turn customers off of certain animals because they knew people wouldn't be ready for them. I haven't found a store that puts as much effort and money into their systems.

On the subject of Powder Blues:

I've never seen a vibrantly coloured small one. They have some of the nicest I've seen in the larger sizes.

Allen has spent some time finding a good supplier and in his experience he's had a high success rate (98% survival) with this species from this supplier.

I've never kept a PBT but my reading indicates they belong in an experienced hobbyists tank. My one attempt with this species ended badly but I didn't start with a healthy animal. I personally probably wouldn't try again.

[naesco]

I don't think that anyone was critical of the management of J&L but I think most of the posters were surprised that they were offering a tang, which is very very difficult for even the most experienced reefers, on sale on their website.

[christyf5]

OK I don't know much about tangs, mostly because my tank is too small so I've sort of veered away from them and deal with smaller fish. What exactly is it that makes a PBT so hard to keep (if not the obvious, "well they just die in captivity")???

Christy

[naesco]

Christie
Like most fish, if you provide the right conditions which include a suitably sized tank, pristine water and a correct feeding regimen, tangs will have a long and happy life.

However there are species of fish which are impossible to keep (long term) and some that are very very difficult to keep.
The powder blue tang is in the latter category.
IMO they are a sensitive fish. This begins with their capture, holding and shipment to the LFS. Many don't make it past the LFS doors and for that reason many LFS refuse to carry them anymore. Reefers are not going to buy a fish that is unhealthy looking.

Provided you have the right conditions, it has been my experience and the experience of many tang keepers, that the powder blue tang does well for a number of months 4-9 and then for no apparent reason gets sick. The symptoms include refusal to eat, hiding, inactivity and eventually some type of bacterial or other infection including ich that attacks them in this weakened state. They die often causing problems for the other tankmates as well.
IMO this is a very sensitive fish that requires optimum conditions in the strictest sense. In most tanks something is lacking that will not allow it to survive.
A tiny percentage of experienced reefers have had long term success with this fish. Most reefers who claim success have not had them that long.

Based on the above, it is my personal opinion that the powder blue tang should not be sold at LFS or online stores. It should be available on an order basis to reefers who feel that they can provide the optimum care they need.

My personal objection to seeing these fish available is as follows.
1. Most powder blue tangs are already sick when they are available for sale.
2. Because powder blue tangs come from both Indonesia and the Phillippines where the use of cyanide is prevalent in the capture of most tangs, angels and triggers the risk is increased.
3. Most online and LFS stores do not indicate where the fish comes from, whether it is guaranteed net caught and and honest assessment of the the degree of difficulty.
4. Like mandarins, the powder blue tangs are sucker fish for newbies who are the first choices because of their outstanding beauty.

The fishers who catch them, the exporters, wholesales and LFS and online stores ALL know the difficulties with this fish yet dont let the reefer know.
We are long past the buyer beware thinking of the past. We have the right to demand that an ethical and responsible industry serve our and our fellow reefers needs. (sorry for the bit of preaching here but I dont think it surprises anyone

[Delphinus]

Originally Posted by naesco

What about saltwater connection? What are they selling? Anyone know?

Jayson is away on a really long road trip right now, so he likely won't be able to answer. I don't want to put words in his mouth, but he & I have had many frank discussions about cyanide in the past. He will not order from places/areas where he knows cyanide use is rampant. He, at one time, was looking into becoming MAC certified. I don't know if that process is complete or not, but as the MAC certification criteria dictate, you can only order from MAC certified suppliers and they can't be using cyanide and etc. etc. I know MAC certification has been debated in the past, particularly "what good can a piece of paper accomplish" but I personally DO beleive that the idea has potential and merit. He also visits his suppliers on a regular basis, so he has the chance to scrutinize who he does business with in person. Of course, I guess it still comes down to "who do you trust as your vendor" but for me, at least, I do trust Jayson on that one.

[zulu_principle]

Time to step on some toes:

Limited Flights, same flight, same supplier, different supplier.......

Same ocean, same supply, almost identical technique in capture.

Same Flight............

Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out someone sells to all of the retail outfits.

Call a spade a spade or fold, but lets not try to bull&*(^.



Wendell

[saltcreep]

Wendell,

Sorry for your pessimistic view on this situation. Just a quick count, but there are 8+ companies importing fish directly from overseas in Vancouver alone. Product also comes from 6+ major collection areas. Others import product from LA. That would lead me to believe that there is a variety of fish available in the Lower Mainland.

There is a world of difference in the way that overseas exporters collect, handle, and ship their product. Look at just the issue over cyanide use. Some use it...some don't. I don't think that saying that there are different exporters used is "bull waste". The Philippines alone, there are five exporters used by my count. They all differ.

I guess in my hand I can have 13 different spades. You choose the one to call.