ICh

[midgetwaiter]

If you already have the UV then great but I don't think it's gonna fix this. Stinky has the right idea here, it is somewhat tricky to use copper on these fish but it is not impossible. Given the gravity of the situation I'd say it was time.

This isn't for everybody but given your experience with fish you can manage it. Either go see Albert about it or PM me your number and I'll give you a call.

[Salmon King]

I have been in saltwater fish for 16 years.In the first few years almost every fish I bought had ich.I have treated boxfish and puffers with no loss of either species.UVsterilizers wont do the job.Raising the temp does speed up the reproduction of parasites .If you have a copperbase medication raising the temp does help.You should of got the fish out of your main tank /freshwater dipped them and put them in a clean quaratine tank that had a copperbased medication.They would of had a fighting chance then.Talk to any pet shop owner and grill them into what works on ich.They always say copperbased medications are the only thing that really works not these snake oil medications or food addtives.I know people are trying to help but alot of fish are dying needlisly.As always aquaratine tank will save you alot of moner and fish in the long run.

[RD]

Hey Tim, sorry to hear about your ich outbreak. Some good advice given in this thread, hopefully you'll be successful in saving your fish.

Regarding garlic, garlic has indeed been proven to have anti-bacterial, anti-fungal, anti-parasitic, and antiviral properties (Bartelme, 2003 and Cortes-Jorge, 2001). Over the past decade there has been a number of studies involving garlic and fish food and the anecdotal evidence with regards to feeding fish allicin complex (the active ingredient in garlic) to rid them of parasites appeared to be quite strong. The following is a link to a more recent study that confirms what some people have been saying all along.
http://www.scielo.br/pdf/jvatitd/v12n2/v12n2a03.pdf

A. M. Shalaby et al. EFFECTS OF GARLIC (Allium sativum) AND CHLORAMPHENICOL ON GROWTH PERFORMANCE, PHYSIOLOGICAL PARAMETERS AND SURVIVAL OF NILE TILAPIA (Oreochromis niloticus). J. Venom. Anim. Toxins incl. Trop. Dis., 2006, 12, 2, p.196


In this particular study the inclusion of garlic powder at a rate of 3% was shown to increase the overall digestibilty of protein, carbohydrates, and fat, as well as to lower the total bacteria count within the intestine, muscles, as well as the tank water itself.

Garlic is a great preventative solution to keeping your fish (and water) free from outbreaks of various disease causing pathogens, and while on its own it certainly won't cure a case of ich, it's no snake oil either.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Originally Posted by Salmon King

Maybe its a good food supplement but marine bioligists I have talked to disagree with that even.I dont mean to step on anybodys toes but when people say its a parasite treatment and people believe it and lose fish when the only proven treatment is copper based medications.

Its not a parasite treatment but does boost a fishes immune system and helps fight off ich. My brother did one of his papers and studies at UBC Marine Biology on this and found that fish eating food supplemented with garlic were much less likely to get sick when parasites were introduced to their tank.

Im not sure what marine biologists your talking too but having a brother as a marine biologist means I meet A LOT of them and almost every one of them will tell you, they are not at all the best people to ask for advice about home aquaria.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Originally Posted by Salmon King

I have been in saltwater fish for 16 years.In the first few years almost every fish I bought had ich.I have treated boxfish and puffers with no loss of either species.UVsterilizers wont do the job.Raising the temp does speed up the reproduction of parasites .If you have a copperbase medication raising the temp does help.You should of got the fish out of your main tank /freshwater dipped them and put them in a clean quaratine tank that had a copperbased medication.They would of had a fighting chance then.Talk to any pet shop owner and grill them into what works on ich.They always say copperbased medications are the only thing that really works not these snake oil medications or food addtives.I know people are trying to help but alot of fish are dying needlisly.As always aquaratine tank will save you alot of moner and fish in the long run.

No freshwater dip. Especially with puffers. Its entirely unnecessary if your about to quarantine them with copper. Freshwater dips can lead to osmotic shock and the long term affects do not always show up right away. I would highly recommend hyposalinity with puffers, as copper can be very harsh on scaless fish. I have had a Dogface die because copper levels spiked. If you do use it, you need to be testing the copper with a high end test kit about 3 times a day...with a puffer, maybe double.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Originally Posted by RD

Hey Tim, sorry to hear about your ich outbreak. Some good advice given in this thread, hopefully you'll be successful in saving your fish.

Regarding garlic, garlic has indeed been proven to have anti-bacterial, anti-fungal, anti-parasitic, and antiviral properties (Bartelme, 2003 and Cortes-Jorge, 2001). Over the past decade there has been a number of studies involving garlic and fish food and the anecdotal evidence with regards to feeding fish allicin complex (the active ingredient in garlic) to rid them of parasites appeared to be quite strong. The following is a link to a more recent study that confirms what some people have been saying all along.
http://www.scielo.br/pdf/jvatitd/v12n2/v12n2a03.pdf

A. M. Shalaby et al. EFFECTS OF GARLIC (Allium sativum) AND CHLORAMPHENICOL ON GROWTH PERFORMANCE, PHYSIOLOGICAL PARAMETERS AND SURVIVAL OF NILE TILAPIA (Oreochromis niloticus). J. Venom. Anim. Toxins incl. Trop. Dis., 2006, 12, 2, p.196


In this particular study the inclusion of garlic powder at a rate of 3% was shown to increase the overall digestibilty of protein, carbohydrates, and fat, as well as to lower the total bacteria count within the intestine, muscles, as well as the tank water itself.

Garlic is a great preventative solution to keeping your fish (and water) free from outbreaks of various disease causing pathogens, and while on its own it certainly won't cure a case of ich, it's no snake oil either.

Where did snake oil even come into this???

Great information there. I think this is actually what my brother based a lot of his research on, as well as his own experiments.

[Salmon King]

Rudy lost his fish.Garlic didnt work.How come they took treatment for parasites off the label.I guess they didnt want to get sued for peoples fish dying

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Originally Posted by Salmon King

Rudy lost his fish.Garlic didnt work.How come they took treatment for parasites off the label.I guess they didnt want to get sued for peoples fish dying

If this is directed at my post, read it again...maybe slower. I never said it cures ich. It helps fish fight ich by boosting their immune system. You can't be sued for peoples fish dying even if you do claim it is a medication for ich. As for the label, I have never seen a label on garlic. My grocery just sells it in bulk.

I have no problem if your saying you have had bad luck with trying garlic, or even dont recommend it but unless you have scientific proof to discredit the scientific proof given above, do not tell people its useless. On its own, it will not rid your tank of ich, I do not think anyone is claiming that. But it can help and certainly does not hurt anything. My fish are fed food soaked in garlic everytime they eat.

What exactly have Marine Biologists told you? Who were they?

[RD]

As you know garlic was sold as a treatment for parasites at the beginning but is not now.They took that off there label.I told people of garlic 10 years ago before it was sold as a remedy.It was said it was fed to cows and horses to keep ticks and masquitos from biting them that as how somebody ran with the idea as a treatment for parasites for fish in a reef tank.It/s a wise tale.I wish I had sold it and made a million but I wouldnt have felt good misleading people.Maybe its a good food supplement but marine bioligists I have talked to disagree with that even.I dont mean to step on anybodys toes but when people say its a parasite treatment and people believe it and lose fish when the only proven treatment is copper based medications.

Talk to any pet shop owner and grill them into what works on ich.They always say copperbased medications are the only thing that really works not these snake oil medications or food addtives

The food that I use (and cough-cough, sell) contains garlic, and has for the past 10 yrs, yes, even back when you were telling people about garlic, and the inventor of this particular brand of food has been keeping (and at one time importing on a large commercial scale) marine fish for the past 40 yrs.

As Green Spotted Puffer just stated, no one is saying that garlic will cure ich.

[Salmon King]

All I am pointing out is people thinking garlic will save there fish from parasites as the fellow that started this link.Think of all the fish that died from using garlic as a cure.I have saved many fish for other hobbyists with copper based medications as long as you treat quickly and correctly