Tank size for Tangs? An evaluation...

[Troy F]

Another interesting post. Marc (Fudge) and I touched on the subject the other day. He raised the same question about large angels and triggers, etc.. Why don't they receive the same scrutiny? Because we are predominantly reefers, they don't come up as a subject of discussion usually as they aren't really reef friendly. My feelings regarding the aforementioned species is the same as my view on tangs/surgeons.

I disagree with your view on trading the fish in. How many fish do you think Tak is going to accept? This might work for you but it certainly won't be an opportunity for everyone. You should have plans for the fishes entire lifespan when you buy it. That would be conscientious husbandry. When this subject was first brought up, it was because of SFF's Paracanthurus hepatus living in a 33gal tank. At one time there were two in there. He says that they're ~1.5" but the photo (as Canadian points out) clearly shows they are significantly larger. When do you decide when your fish goes to a larger home? What is a larger home? SFF's fish will make it's way to a 60, then what? One of the things hobbyists tend to do is exagerate in what ever direction makes them look better.

I think the point you make about mimics is interesting although, I don't know that it applies in the way you would like. I read what little I have on them and it only states that they mimic because the angel is less palatable. Correct me if I'm wrong but both families are grazers, they would starve if they just bolted to grab a bite here and there. My guess would be, they go from hiding spot to hiding spot while eating. The difference in keeping two different species with similar habits would be the maximum growth attained. A dwarf angel may be quite alright in a 50gal but a surgeon would be cramped.

Since you brought Centropyge spp. up, I have a few thoughts on them as well. I kept a C. potteri in my 72gal. He was ~1.5" and beautifully colored, my favourite fish but I questioned keeping him for two reasons; 1.) he made a clam nervous 2.) he would at times pace the glass frantically. Now, maybe the pacing at the glass was challenging his reflection but it could have been discomfort with being in captivity. The centropyge family are all widely accepted in smaller tanks but I do wonder if this is always the best place for them. My suspician is, that any grazing species of fish will be hit or miss in smaller tanks. Food for thought.

[Doug]

Good point Diomedes on all larger fish. I can only speak for myself. I have always mentioned them in these threads. I believe I even said large fish a couple times in this thread.

Large angels, IMO, are even worse than large tangs, to keep in all but the largest tanks.

As for pygmy angels, they seem to do best in a decent size tank, but only with LOTS, of live rock, to hide & dart in. They also thrive on lots of growth of different algaes.

If you want my opinion, I would say their best tank, would be like a manderins. Good sandbed or even a reverse undergravel filter system. Lots of live rock, with lots of caves,etc. A decent growth of calerpa, in the tank, or even lots of hair algae growth. Perhaps some corals like leathers and the such. No anenomes, lps, sps.

[sumpfinfishe]

So Troy you think I'm hiding the truth about the size of my tangs, ok then, you are more than welcome to come over and see for yourself the size of my tangs. I should let you know however that if you do come by the deal is that you tell all the members the "real size" and health of these fish. I should also mention that image on my reefpage is an older image that was taken with a wide angle lens which tends to throw everything out of true size and shape. As for exagerating, well I'm not on this board to impress anyone, I'm simply here to share my opinions,lend a fin, and to expand my reefing knowledge. It seems to me that there are a few people out here that are
ignorant and big headed as all they have to say about others is in a negitive manner.Also the only fish that goes to my roomates tank is a regal, every other fish in my reef is at least two to three years old and they are perminent residents. When I aquire a new baby regal I do make sure it has another larger home to go to in the future. My single regal now, will end up in another friends reef(180gal) in a year or so depending on it's growth rate, at which time I will aquire another baby ragal tang to take it's place.

[Troy F]

A difference of opinion hardly makes someone ignorant SFF. Ironic choice of words though. Try to avoid the use of insults in your argument lest I assume you're ignorant ;) .

[robert]

SFF, if you are so sure about your right doing why you are still here looking for some sort of approval from ignorant and non-ignorant members of this board? Just do what you think is right and enjoy it.

To all others who disagree with SFF, I just would like to say "Give the guy break!". He didn't come here with question "Can I keep tangs in dadadada...." Despite many arguments on this and other boards he believes that he is right. So let him be. Do you want to punish him or something? Only one who wants to be helped can be helped. Is he asking for help? I don't think so.

BTW, if you want to protect tangs then focus on traders with tangs. They kill much more tangs in the capturing process than aquarium stores will ever see.

Can somebody close this thread now, please. :D :D :D :D

[ 23 September 2002, 13:01: Message edited by: pirate ]

[Diomedes]

Many good points Troy,
With regards to your first question, about trading fish in, and how Tak cannot be a resource for everyone. Well that is true. If each reefer here bought a small tang and raised it to the medium size, without killing it, Tak would have more than enough room in his 10,000 gal...but will he ALWAYS be there? No. So your arguement is sound under ideal and lasting conditions. Your suggestion of planning to provide for your Tang's growth as he matures is an ideal solution - obviously the best and most conscientious. This means at some point buying a ~200-300 gallon system(in my opinion). That truly is ideal, but may not be in the plans for many of us. But the arguement is sound again.

It is great to see that most people do their best to provide for their fish, whether it is by trading them into larger systems, or purchasing systems that are larger. (the difference?)

Then about this photo, and the size issue on the small Paracanthurus hepatus. I found the calculation from Canadian's computer screen to be a little sketchy. I respect what he was trying to prove, but looking at a photo to judge size you would need to know a lot more than just the size of your own monitor. The depth, angle, lighting, filters, lense etc. can all contribute to make a tang look small or large. Canadian's method of determining tang size was full of variable's he couldn't control. period.
I could take a snapshot of a 1 cm tang and make it look larger than a dinner-plate sized Sarcophyton spp. (Please don't aske me too though ;) )
As far as exaggerating what makes us look better, that shot was beneath you Troy. You are a great guy to talk to, full of knowledge, and experience. You don't need to speculate on someone's possible exaggerations.

Also Troy - your quote

"I think the point you make about mimics is interesting although, I don't know that it applies in the way you would like."

Maybe not, and maybe you have read that it is because Centropyge spp. angels are less palatable. So have I...I was just speculating that it might not be that simple... The nature of the theory posed is not meant to bolster my arguement, but to bring up an additional relation in behavior. BTW, I have seen two Centropyge spp. angels scarfed down by two separate groupers (Epinephalus ongus, and Cromileptes altivelis) That doesn't mean that Centropyge spp. are palatable, but they are certainly edible.

As far as grazing fish go, I feel that most reef fish species graze on a number of habitats in the wild.

Yes Doug I agree with you completely. I have kept some Centropyge spp. and I have seen them delight in caves, lush live rock full of diverse life. They like to poke at things, and mine likes to organize all the other fish in the tank. He herds them around, keeping them away from hisfavourite arch (including the juvenile powder blue tang!!) They truly excel in tanks that are suitable for mandarins as well. My Centropyge argi has fluorescent blue streaks along his body, and I attribute that to the diversity of life growing on my live rock.

Diomedes

[Doug]

Why would we want to close this thread? It was started by Diomedes, on tangs in general and not on anybodys specific tank, although we know thats what started it. It has been an interesting thread, with some very good info for learning aquarists.
I agree it needs to stay on topic and not on arguments about a specific tank. OR, it may be closed. ;)

[robert]

I agree it needs to stay on topic and not on arguments about a specific tank. OR, it may be closed. ;)

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Doug, precisely. You got my point. ;)

[Skimmerking]

I second the motion ,even if i can't read!!!! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[naesco]

I think I can answer some of the questions asked here.
The reasons why tangs are the subject of so much concern relative to their care are twofold
1. Tangs are beautiful endearing fish. Take a look at an angel for example. They may be brightly coloured but who could fall in love with them? OK I may just be a tiny bit biased.
2. Most of my fish is dying, my fish has ich, my fish is sick or they are killing each other threadsinvolve tangs when you think about it right.
IME most of the problem, provided you buy a healthy specimin is environmental ie. stress caused by other tankmates in a small tank or so so water conditions.

I think a lot of the controversy on the tang issue would be avoided if the original posters who are experienced tang keepers prefaced their comments with a caveat such as "The powder blue tang is an almost impossible to keep species but I have had success by feeding...........whatever.
No one would consider talking about mandarins without prefacing their remarks with the necessity of an established tank with high pod populations would they?